"Handschar, what's the obsession???" Topic

@Andy

I was referring to combat performance and the fact they kept fighting a retrograde action into Hungary and some even made it to the Fuhrer bunker. You happen to be fixated on the atrocities I am not, we are talking about two separate things. Less emotion Andy more thought…

Yes, I have ran into this before on TMP. I like you Dragon are not looking at the "morality" of units like the SS, etc. But how they functioned, etc., historically in combat. Their tactical efficiency, effectiveness, etc. From a military history POV.

We all know that the SS, etc. committed war crimes, etc.. But when studying history if you only read about the "good guys" … You'll have a very short reading list.

And these Handschar may or may not have been a very efficient and effective in combat. And did almost assuredly committed war crimes, etc. But as we know in many cases in both the ETO & PTO, atrocities sadly happened. It's an historical fact.

I nor Dragon, support the ideology that the SS, Handschar, Neo-Nazis, etc. But we are both somewhat students of history. And both served in the US ARMY Infantry in our youth.

So I believe both he and I would be interested from a, dare I say "academic" or even "unemotional" POVs of many groups, events, etc., that have occurred in the past. And I'm sure many here probably would agree, yes, ?

No not at all, I'm not concentrating on atrocities. Just saying I'm pretty sure they took place.
After reading through the link Id say during its anti partisan operations the unit was pretty average, some successes, some rough handling by its enemy. Nothing special. Not a great unit. Pestered by mutineers and desertion.

The elements in Hungary and on, after a major restructuring of the division, up to 50% German, also SS units late war really didn't have the option to surrender, not a good career move. They had to keep fighting wherever they were. Also the original members kept deserting.

Sorry but looking at this unit from a military viewpoint, I still don't see a great combat performance.

I never said their performance was great but they actually fought in some real battles not just Partisan hunting and they held together to the end. The kind of late war stuff I would game.

Just saying I'm pretty sure they took place.

I would suggest greater restraint before accusing someone of War Crimes. Even if they were in the SS.

From the link:
While it achieved successes and proved itself competent in counter-insurgency operations against the Partisans in eastern Bosnia,[124] the division earned a reputation for brutality and savagery, not only during combat operations,[31] but also through atrocities committed against Serb[125][126] and Jewish civilians[127] in the security zone. Its reprisal attacks in northern and eastern Bosnia left many hundreds and possibly as many as several thousand Serb civilians dead by the spring and summer of 1944.[128]

Sorry but looking at this unit from a military viewpoint, I still don't see a great combat performance.

It's a good to study the Elite, the Green, the Hardened, etc., and even the marginal, ineffective, etc.

A good technique, IMO is to study "the good, the bad and the ugly", etc. You can learn/see what to do and not what to do, etc., etc. …

From wiki, since I don't have any of the other sources available.

First combat operation (9-12 March 1944) was pretty ugly, lots of civilians reported dead.

From then until end of May 1944, though, no reports of civilians deliberately killed, despite heavy fighting that saw at least one battalion get decimated.

Got stomped pretty hard in June, but again, no reports of civilians being deliberately killed.

No reports of atrocities in July or August 1944, despite heavy fighting. Numbers of captured weapons more-or-less align with claimed killed partisans.

You see desertions start to happen when Tito announced a general amnesty, and again when the division was withdrawn from Bosnia. Due to those desertions, the remaining Bosnians were disarmed and sent into labor units.

In the spring of 1945, when the Soviets were solidly kicking the German military, the Bosnians were sent back to the division.

As the unit was ordered south and then to surrender, the Bosnian troops requested to be demobilized, which was granted. Many of them were then murdered by the Partisans they had fought a year earlier.

Quite bluntly, the Wikipedia Aftermath section you quote does not jive with the reported unit history. Hundreds or thousands of dead civilians? Not when there were thousands of captured rifles!

Remember, we're talking about the former Yugoslavia, the place the blew up into ethnic cleansing in 1991 or so. Hate runs deep there.

The unit was plagued with desertion and mutinty, it also did commit atrocities, I don't see the number being relevant.
That is not an efficient military model.

I wonder what Allied divisions looked like for desertion levels.

I know that if you tried the same recruiting pitch today (Join our unit, you will stay where you live and protect your families) and then ordered the unit to go somewhere else, you'd see a lot of major-league hate and discontent. Wouldn't be surprised if you saw ~200 deserters in a division of 17,000 initially. Or an attempted mutiny led by 5 men.

In the US military.

This unit was not 'plagued with desertion and mutiny'. Desertions are mentioned only twice in the official reports by the divisional commander and both times only about 200 men deserted. The first time, 220 men deserted (about half of them Croats who deserted back to the Ustase, along with their equipment). The second time, a group of Bosnian Muslims deserted at the end of the war, before the division's surrender (again, taking their equipment with them) and returned back to Bosnia, where, it is assumed, they were annihilated by the Partisans.

Mutiny? Once, while training in France. A platoon of 20 men mutinied and killed several officers of the signals battalion. All of the instigators, except one (who was never found) were executed in front of the signals battalion by firing squad. There are no other reports of mutiny among the division. So, why would anyone say 'plagued' with mutiny? If you get drunk once, are you labelled an 'alcoholic'?

The fez in battle? Yes, most pictures of the division show that the fez was worn by all ranks, even in combat. How did it stay on? Are none of you married? Simple, it was pinned to the hair. Even the divisional commanders (there were two) wore the fez. For the German cadre, the mountain cap could also be worn (though it was against regulations).

Massacres? andysyk mentions Dedijer who was a Communist Partisan himself and who had fought against the division in Bosnia. Let's put it simply: why would a group of soldiers massacre the very civilians that they are dependent upon to feed them? It was 1944 and supplies from Germany (especially food) were short, therefore, would the division randomly slaughter innocent civilians? Who would harvest the grain? Who would feed the division? Do you think that food falls from the sky? The division would not be involved in harvesting but in guarding the harvest. Massacres did occur. All sides slaughtered civilians; however, to heap all massacres at the feet of this unit is ridiculous.

Jewish civilians: By 1944, there were hardly any Jewish civilians in the NDH. There were roundups of Jewish civilians regularly in the NDH, about every 3-4 months. Bosnia was no exception; it was, after all, an integral part of the NDH. By Feb. 1944 (the time of the division's deployment), there were an estimated 350 Jewish civilians scattered throughout the NDH (which included Bosnia) who were "running free", mostly in the cities or larger towns. The division was not responsible for them, it was responsible for anti-Partisan operations. The SD, and a particularly nasty group of Ustase, the Bialy Orlovi (the White Eagles – if memory serves. Sorry for the spelling, my Serbo-Croat is a bit rusty) were responsible for rounding up civilians. The 13th SS was too busy chasing Tito's Partisans and protecting Muslim villages to be rounding up anyone.

Basically, the history of this division has been written by its enemies. The post-war Yugoslav government did all that it could to slander the name of this division and Prinz Eugen with accusations of atrocities, mainly to cover up the fact that the Partisans had been kicked out of eastern Bosnia by the division. Tito's Partisans, while implacable, had extremely poor leadership in eastern Bosnia and they often blamed the division for atrocities they themselves committed. As an example of the 'evidence' against the division, consider this: in the 1947 book entitled "The Crimes of the Austrian People Against the Citizens of Yugoslavia" the Handschar Division is mentioned only once in a paragraph where supposedly an officer of the I/28 (who was Austrian) shot and killed a civilian in Tuzla. It has to be remembered that the majority of officers in the division were Austrians and had transferred from other SS units. His pay book showed that he was on leave and visiting his family at the time of the alleged incident. He was executed by the post-war Yugoslav government for that 'crime'.

As far as being a 'Nazi' and trying to "rewrite history" as one poster accused me of doing: I guess it's the political situation in the West that views having a civil discussion and presenting evidence that is contradictory to the accepted wisdom that gets one labelled a "denier". I would politely like to ask this poster to submit hard evidence – facts, documents, anything of that sort in German or Serbo-Croat to back up the claims that the division randomly massacred civilians. I've looked at both and all I can find are insinuations and a lot of, "They were Germans"-which would not indicate Bosnian Muslims but SD or other German-speaking units. The accusations leveled at the division by its enemies (the Communist Partisans) do not count and would not count in a court of law, being dismissed as hearsay. I repeat, there are no documents that show the division committed mass atrocities. All we have are the word of their enemies.

Yes, "Hate runs deep there", so do lies.

The fez in battle? Yes, most pictures of the division show that the fez was worn by all ranks, even in combat. How did it stay on? Are none of you married? Simple, it was pinned to the hair

No I'm not married. But again, I'm sure it provided little protection save from rain, snow, bird droppings, etc.

And again, even pinned, don't know how long or how well it would stay on while doing the things Infantrymen do in again, e.g. a firefight. Running, jumping, etc. However, I was not there so you may be correct.

For a point of comparison with a US unit in Vietnam accused of atrocities during anti-partisan/anti-guerilla fighting:

During Operation Speedy Express, the US' 1st Brigade, 9th Infantry Division claimed over 10,000 enemy soldiers killed but only recovered 748 weapons. That's one weapon for every 15 dead, roughly 6.5% armed.

During Operation Heiderose, the Handschar claimed over 900 partisans dead and captured one AT gun, two mortars, 22 machine guns, and over 800 rifles, plus over 500,000 rounds of small-arms ammunition. That's at least 825 weapons recovered from at least 900 dead, roughly 90% of all claimed casualties armed, and assuming unarmed crew for the heavy weapons accounts for roughly another 100 combatants not armed with rifles.

=====

Also, let's not forget that basically all the Bosnian troops who stayed with the division during it's retreat were murdered by the Partisans when the Bosnians returned home. 1,400 returning soldiers killed in one instance!

Swampking
You wrote:
Frankly, I can understand the fascination with the Handschar Division. Himmler nursed the division, made sure it got the best equipment and while the division was always short of NCOs and officers, it seems to have been mentioned favorably in reports, with no mention whatsoever of atrocities, at least in the German archives. Its role in anti-Partisan warfare in tough terrain, with enemies on all sides (the NDH despised any kind of Bosnian Moslem nationalism, with the Chetniks being grudging allies at best) against an implacable foe, makes the unit fascinating; and yes, the fez is really cool.

Ok, I don't have a fascination with it or fezs.

lol…. Give it a rest, boys

Blimey, that's a lot of deleted posts. Can't we just say "SS bad, SS camouflage cool"

That works for me Fox !

I can't even remember what I posted …

😁

Thing is, if you are doing WWII battles it is impossible to avoid certain SS units because the feature as the main antagonist in the battles around Caen, Kharkov,Arnhem and the Ardennes. So I eventually ended up painting some out of sheer necessity.

But that said, IMO a unit wearing the fez would only be cool if said fez were painted blue and the unit depicted disgruntled TMP'ers!

Would that be a + or – morale modifier?