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"The Joy of Imagi Nations" Topic


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Ottoathome04 Oct 2017 1:30 p.m. PST

on 18th century discussions someone asked if the warfare of the 18th century was the most humane ever. I see they did not echo it here. Therefore I post my response as it somewhat glorifies Imagi-Nations.

I will argue that in some sense it was. There was not the regular massacres of the Thirty Years War, and there was an attempt at discipline unlike that earlier period or the wholselale looting of the peasants and rapes and rioting and looting of the Napoleonic wars who were bringing the blessings of "Liberty Equality, Fraternity" to the poor benighted masses of Europe.

From the standpoint of the person hurt by it, the wounded, killed, casualities and looted of 18th century Europe were as wounded, killed, hurt, and looted as their forefathers had been or their descendants would be. But unlike the wars of the previous age or the latter ones (where under nationalism one could do and was justified in doing what on wanted to a foe of "impure blood" in revenge for assumed wrongs, at least the 18th century had the illusion and tried to live by it from time to time. It is a far cry from the hypocrisy of "restraining war" to believing and acting that war was supposed to be to root and branch, tooth and nail, and an exercise in murder.

Sobeiski is right.

Besides there is a certain quality in an age of "Gentlemen of France you may fire first!" or of where we have a certain internationalism where we have such typically "Austrian" names in the "Queen of Hungary's Army" such as MacDonald, O'Toole, Serbelloni, Monteccucoli, Windischgratz, Jellalic, Keith, Oblonof, and in which even a few Turks served.

Perhaps it is only an illusion but it is a happy illusion taken from a few facts that allow us to think that way, but nevertheless how much more wonderful to think that way. At least there are some games in our hobby of war games were we can have this happy illusion where war is not war to the knife, but in some case waged in accord with "Code Duello".

Consider a paraphrase from Hendrik Van Loon's "Lives" in this case from that of Descarte.

"For the better part of the year the armies hibernated in their winter camps. Then when the whether grew less inclement it was time to resume the contest in the great out of doors. But why exhaust yourself plodding around the countryside. Better yet to sit down before some enemy town and fortress and besiege it, seeking to gain a valuable piece to negotiate with at the peace table.

This you did and dug like moles for a few months until you came to the time when you could under flag of truce announce to your opponent. "Sir, tomorrow if I blow my mines and give touch to my cannon, I will destroy three of your bastions, four ravelins, eight redoubts, ten of your demi-lunes and 700 yards of your curtains, whereas you can demolish at most only two miles of my trenches, you can plainly see that your position is hopeless and I have won and you have lost. Will you not consider honorable terms to avoid a useless effusion of blood? Whereupon you, after being led on an inspection of the besiegers works, probed the mines, seen the preparations will make a few calculations with your pencil and say

.,"Honerable Sir you have indeed won and I have lost. I shall accept whatever terms you care to offer. Whereupon you reach to unbuckle your sword and present it to your opponent.

He steps forward and stays your hand and says "Please ! Keep your sword! I would no more accept your sword than strike the brush from a Raphael or the pen from an Erasmus."


"Sir, you do me too much honor!"

"Nothing of the kind! You are a valiant and formidable foe!"

"Sir what terms do you offer?"

"Whatever terms Monsieur that you yourself will write."

"You are too kind may I invite you to dine with me tonight!"]

"It would be an honor sir provided we dine on whatever the garrison will eat tonight."

Which is where Christopher Duffy notes that I believe it was Marlborough and Marshall Boufflers sat down to a thin horsemeat steak.

In the morning the besieging army was lined up on the road out of the fortress. The gates would swing open and the besieged would come marching out flags flying bands playing the airs of the besieger and the besieges would answer with their own bands in kind. You would take your place of honor and review the regiments leaving with all their arms and cannon, and then review the besiegers marching I. Officers who were old friends from both sides, often family members would meet and catch up on family gossip. there would be parties.

After battles where you might be captured if you were an officer you would likely as not be immured in a fortress, where upon your word you had the run of the town and would be invited to all the balls and parties and dinners by the local gentry eager to show off their daughters to dashing foreign officers, and hopeful marriages, and to hear all the gossip and latest fashions as people do travelers tales was not so bad. For the rank and file they would also be released on patrol, might find employment in the local watch or in other ways.

Then there is the testimony of Lee Kennett in the French Army of the Seven Years War, about how the Duke of Brunswick received a letter across the lines from Marshal Chevert about the Chevalier so and so of the Lameth Dragoons, who was prisoner of the Duke and begged him to release him otherwise he would not be able to make a fashionable and profitable marriage back in Versailles. One can imagine what the sour-humored misogynist back in Sans Souci would have said, but I do not doubt that even he would have stood in his way. It was that type of age.

And finally for the most part when Oktoberfest was come the armies went into winter hibernation again, and officers went back to the capital for the holiday celebrations and of course the riotous season of Carnival, and the soldiers hunkered down in cabins, barns or some fortress.

Yes it may be in large part a romanticism and a fairy tale, but there was some substance to it.

And besides. This is war games and we are free to adopt and adapt what myths we want, so I in my part believe and game this way. It sounds to me an utterly delightful way to get on with the messy business of war.

But if you truly want to imbibe the spirit of the age, listen to Haydn's "military" Symphony or "The Clock" Or Neubauer's battalia symphony where the armies move by an elegant minuet and a contretanz.

I'll take the myth with an extra helping of Schlagzahne thank you very much.

Unlike Frederick in my armies, as that of Soubise, I have forty cooks and one spy and think that quite enough (spies I mean, one can never have enough cooks.)

What's the point of dying like the lower class if you cannot live like the upper class.

Ragbones04 Oct 2017 1:52 p.m. PST

grin thumbs up

Personal logo Dye4minis Supporting Member of TMP04 Oct 2017 2:02 p.m. PST

Another two examples of the 18th century environment of warfare:

1. While raiding Berlin, Hayduk, when demanding ransom from Berlin while Freddy was out, demanded a dozen pair of fine silk gloves for Maria Theresa. He got them.

2. The dozen pair of gloves were all left handed!

v/r
Tom

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP04 Oct 2017 3:07 p.m. PST

Another example. When England and France recommenced their long-running hostilities with the Seven Years War, Britons residing in France were terribly upset: it played hob with the mail service between London and Paris.

His Imperial Majesty Napoleon I had a rather different approach to this--as did that bumped-up Austrian Gefreiter.

Frederick Supporting Member of TMP04 Oct 2017 5:37 p.m. PST

Not to mention that there was nothing like a pair of white gloves, a silver trimmed tricorne and a bit of lace to add some high tone

Sobieski04 Oct 2017 5:49 p.m. PST

There's a charming story about how one of the key points in the peace negotiations during the War of the Austrian Succession was that Freddy insisted on the return of the greyhound looted from his baggage by a party of hussars (doggy had been taken by the colonel as a present to his wife, who didn't want to give her back). When the greyhound was slipped into the room while Fritz was dining and ran eagerly up to him, he is recorded as crying. Spiky bastard, but had his appealing side.

Ottoathome04 Oct 2017 9:39 p.m. PST

Although Thomas Hardy was of the nineteenth century I always thought his poem "The man he killed" described the 18th .

There are a hundred stories of Frederick the Great and others which are ironic comical or gentle. One of the most interesting things is to read the letters of Maria Theresa where she is kvetching some provincial palace wardin or garrison commander if they cannot find a room or a job for "Janosh Beitz, late of our Regiment Waller" so he can retire with a little comfort and dignity in his old age.

True some of it may be legend. But as it says in the movie "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valence"= "when it comes to a choice between the truth and the legend-- print the legend."

skippy000105 Oct 2017 3:43 a.m. PST

Read somewhere that farmers were not conscripted so the depot system would work. This increased the use of mercenaries. True?

Hafen von Schlockenberg05 Oct 2017 8:38 a.m. PST

There were exemptions for a number of occupations.

Ottoathome05 Oct 2017 3:13 p.m. PST

Dear Skippy

The Emperors of central and Eastern Europe did not like to conscript their own farmers and did so only as a last resort. The reason was simple. A farmer at the front was not farming and producing food or paying taxes. France and Spain had plenteous population to spare, but Prussia, Austria, Hungary, Poland and Russia had plenty of land but inadequate population to till it. They wanted to keep them farming and in many cases they thundered against local magistrates who simply scooped up peasants from the farms. They were eager to use foreign mercenaries which left their populations intact.

It also was a phenomenon of the lands of central Europe that "Absolutism" when you examine it was not so "absolute." Oh to be sure there were no elections or democracies, but the bald facts of life in these sandy, mountainous, hilly and unproductive soils made often for a hardscrabble existence.

Oddly enough this was noticed in of all places, here in America. In the farms of the United States in the late 1800's and up to the 20th century, when a farm was exhausted by generations of Anglo-Scots-Irish settlers, they were often bought out by German, Slavic, Nordic and Italian immigrants. They took these exhausted farms and in a year by terracing irrigation, manuring crop rotations and others turned the almost barren fields into garden spots. They were used as I said to the sandy, rocky, largely sloped lands of their homelands.

CAPTAIN BEEFHEART05 Oct 2017 5:17 p.m. PST

There was an incident in the AWI where a Garrison of regulars was defeated by the British, The british officer received the Continentals sword and ran him through with it, starting a great massacre.


Yeah Boy… BTW it was in Connecticut.

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