Garryowen | 03 Oct 2017 5:01 p.m. PST |
With the popularity of Ken Burns' Vietnam TV series, I am wondering if anyone has been inspired by it to buy Vietnam wargame figures or books. Tom |
Winston Smith | 03 Oct 2017 5:16 p.m. PST |
No I've never liked Ken Burns and his style of documentaries. |
Sysiphus | 03 Oct 2017 5:35 p.m. PST |
Define "popularity"; I was reminded all over again about political decisions that put many people's lives in harms way. |
troopwo | 03 Oct 2017 6:11 p.m. PST |
Politics, protests with the odd footage about some war somewhere. |
Dynaman8789 | 03 Oct 2017 6:59 p.m. PST |
I see the grumps are out in force today. I've only seen the first two episodes so far but will be watching the rest. Not really inspired to do anything else – reading up on the "An Army at Dawn" series at the moment. |
KSmyth | 03 Oct 2017 7:57 p.m. PST |
It didn't inspire me to game the conflict, but I was completely mesmerized. I've loved my career as a teacher, but if I could be anyone else, it would be Ken Burns. That said, Bob Murch's new Vietnam range is quite the temptation. |
Cyrus the Great | 03 Oct 2017 8:03 p.m. PST |
Ah yes the grumpy s speak. A great documentary, I learned a lot about the other side that I didn't know before. See this thread: TMP link |
Cyrus the Great | 03 Oct 2017 11:36 p.m. PST |
Our group has been gaming Vietnam for years. For several years we were using Piquet, but we're using an adaptation of Advanced Squad Leader now. |
Winston Smith | 04 Oct 2017 5:59 a.m. PST |
So. Not liking Ken Burns is now a sign of senility? Harrumph. Faded daguerreotype sepia tiny portrait of skinny 18 year old looking solemn in ill fitting uniform. Out of tune banjo music. "And then the Rebs killed me, Ma!" ….. Pvt Albert Malone, 3rd Vermont If disliking that is senile blasphemy, I plead guilty. I'm in no mood to substitute The Doors for out of tune banjo music. Ken Burns is for pseudo historians. |
Hafen von Schlockenberg | 04 Oct 2017 6:36 a.m. PST |
Winston,if you give it a try, I think you'll find it livelier than his Civil War project. More film footage,more interviews with participants. Don't know why that is,exactly. Bigger budget, maybe? |
Martian Root Canal | 04 Oct 2017 6:56 a.m. PST |
Not that old and I don't like Ken Burns' documentaries. They're more editorial than a balanced discourse on a subject, in my opinion. |
Dynaman8789 | 04 Oct 2017 7:22 a.m. PST |
> Ken Burns is for pseudo historians. I'd say the opposite but to each his own. |
StoneMtnMinis | 04 Oct 2017 7:30 a.m. PST |
No,it is hard to get past his political spin. All you have to do is listen carefully to the words he uses in his various descriptions to detect it. That's all I'm going to say on this thread. |
ScottS | 04 Oct 2017 8:24 a.m. PST |
Winston,if you give it a try, I think you'll find it livelier than his Civil War project. More film footage,more interviews with participants.Don't know why that is,exactly. Bigger budget, maybe? It's harder to find Civil War veterans to interview these days. ;) |
Darkest Star Games | 04 Oct 2017 8:28 a.m. PST |
Have only watched one episode, and found it a bit stilted. In any of the others is anyone interviewed that thought the conflict was necessary? Was there any "domino theory" naysayers? |
Darkest Star Games | 04 Oct 2017 8:29 a.m. PST |
Oh, and been gaming Nam for years and years, even wrote FNG for THW. KB had me dig out some old Jazz albums, but I doubt he'll influence my Nam gaming. |
Winston Smith | 04 Oct 2017 8:50 a.m. PST |
We're sort of hard pressed when it comes to "seeing our favorite battles" on film. If it's a movie, they get the tanks wrong, the uniforms shouldn't be red, and leave out the Battle of Issus. If it's a documentary, the politics overwhelm the "real facts". If it's an adaptation of a fantasy book, they leave out Lady Stoneheart and Tom Bombadil. "Rico would never say that!" (Or Patton, or George Washington.) You can't win. |
Winston Smith | 04 Oct 2017 8:52 a.m. PST |
I've explained why I don't like Ken Burns. Saying "Try it, you'll like it!" is like my mother telling me that I really do like red beets. |
Pan Marek | 04 Oct 2017 9:01 a.m. PST |
Winston- No one said anything about senility but you. And THAT is a sign of senility. ;-) |
Hafen von Schlockenberg | 04 Oct 2017 9:37 a.m. PST |
Red beets: My mother kept serving them to us the whole time I was growing up. Always talking about how "good for you" they were, how "good they taste". Yecchh. Many years later,when she was doing physical therapy in a rehab center/nursing home after a fall, I would bring her a salad every day, to supplement the drek those places serve. I always included the little salad bar beets,until she asked me to stop. "I thought you loved beets!" "No, I never liked them". "But you praised them,and tortured us with them our whole lives!" "Oh,that was just because everyone said they were good for you". Long-held suspicions confirmed. On topic: I liked what I've seen of the series, but it hasn't inspired me to do any more Nam gaming than I have so far,which is none. |
Dynaman8789 | 04 Oct 2017 10:00 a.m. PST |
> No,it is hard to get past his political spin I've had no trouble getting past it. Mainly due to it (Civil War) having the best overall discussion of the conflict ever on TV. |
Cyrus the Great | 04 Oct 2017 10:01 a.m. PST |
Opinions from those who didn't watch it have to be taken for what they're worth. |
troopwo | 04 Oct 2017 10:21 a.m. PST |
Cyrus, i did watch it, and there is no way that I can ever make up for the time I wasted. I kept hoping it would get better, it didn't. The only part I did enjoy was watching the Chicago police department wade into the crowd. I can honestly say the only thing I actually learned was that Johnson had recordings of Nixon talking to the RVN and that Johnson probably did not run due to his fear of being found out that he recorded him. Surprising, but even more poignant to our current times. |
Cyrus the Great | 04 Oct 2017 10:37 a.m. PST |
@troopwo, You watched it and have an informed opinion. I especially enjoyed the interviews with the Viet Minh, NLF and NVA troops.I also found it interesting that several presidents had grave doubts about Vietnam, but escalated anyway. Obviously, you had a different experience. |
John Leahy | 04 Oct 2017 11:00 a.m. PST |
I am currently watching it. I have enjoyed it for the most part. Learned some things too. I expect some spin from almost anything put out on film.I tend to tune it out. More combat footage would have been good. But since I haven't watched Tet yet maybe it's coming. Thanks. |
Festerfest | 04 Oct 2017 11:52 a.m. PST |
Divided opinions on a documentary on a politically divisive war within living memory. I'm shocked! Mr Burns documentaries are not for the historian or the pseudo historian. They are "popular/accessible" history the general public who typically have very little familiarity with the subject. They are,in my opinion, very good for what they are. They hit the main points pretty well. If they spark an interest and the result is someone picking up a book and digging deeper then they have served their purpose. |
Col Durnford | 04 Oct 2017 11:56 a.m. PST |
I have not watched it yet. I've been watching the reviews here. Based on what I've read Burns starts with the premise that Ho wanted to side with the U.S. and was driven to the communists by us. Is that how it was presented? |
79thPA | 04 Oct 2017 12:08 p.m. PST |
I agree with Stone Mountain. While it is interesting to hear from the North, the spin he puts on the series by the American veterans he chose to interview is obvious. To answer the original question, no, I don't have any interest in gaming the conflict. If I did want to game it, I don't think I would while my father was still alive. |
Cyrus the Great | 04 Oct 2017 2:44 p.m. PST |
Based on what I've read Burns starts with the premise that Ho wanted to side with the U.S. and was driven to the communists by us. No, not even close. |
Col Durnford | 04 Oct 2017 5:15 p.m. PST |
So it does make Ho out as a hardcore communist? |
Winston Smith | 04 Oct 2017 5:36 p.m. PST |
Had Roosevelt lived, he would have never allowed the French to go back to Vietnam. He had a very dim view of the European colonial Empires. Being an old Imperialist, Churchill wanted to ferry French troops there to take it away from the …. Japanese? Why yes. They were occupying very conveniently. DeGaulle threatened to turn FRANCE Communist if he were not allowed to reclaim French Indochina, and Truman had better things on his mind than to call his bluff. Ho SAID later that he admired George Washington and was surprised etc etc etc. Believe him if you care to. I doubt his sincerity. Somehow, Eisenhower felt we had to step up where the French had failed miserably. It would make a fascinating "what if" if the American Presidents did not feel the need to bail out the French. Twice. Maybe the CIA would have then assassinated Ike rather than JFK. When my time came up, my draft number was 350 out of 365. |
Cyrus the Great | 04 Oct 2017 6:09 p.m. PST |
It shows Ho's transition from radical socialist with some nationalist tendencies (c. Wilson)to full-fledged communist (c. Truman). Ho wants Truman to recognize Vietnam and just forget he's a communist. Truman's blamed for losing China and there's no way he's going to recognize a communist Vietnam. |
LostPict | 04 Oct 2017 6:41 p.m. PST |
I watched 2.5 episodes. The individual interviews and Vietnamese history were great. The single-sided viewpoints of the American interviewees made me wonder if the interviews with the Vietnamese side were also as one-sided. A pity that the opportunity was missed to tell a comprehensive view of the conflict. |
Winston Smith | 05 Oct 2017 9:14 a.m. PST |
The problem with any history of Vietnam is that everybody thinks that their opinion is true and unbiased. Burns comes from PBS. |
goragrad | 05 Oct 2017 12:56 p.m. PST |
The credibility of a historian suffers a bit when they ignore facts that don't fit the narrative they construct. After Burns' panegyric to the early 20th Century suffragettes aired he was asked why there had been no mention of the women's strong anti-abortion views. His reply was that he had somehow missed that in his research. At that point regardless of one's views on that topic, anything that Burns did or would do was tainted. |
Joes Shop | 05 Oct 2017 1:11 p.m. PST |
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Wolfhag | 05 Oct 2017 5:21 p.m. PST |
No I'm inspired by the guys that went over there and made a sacrifice. Not some Hollywood production. I did like his Civil War production. Maybe he could have covered the crimes and Human Rights violations of the NVN Communist Party and Viet Cong in more detail. Wolfhag |
Blutarski | 05 Oct 2017 7:41 p.m. PST |
Well ….. Re the personal political views of Ken Burns, go here - link If you read carefully between the lines of all the carefully phrased stool-straddling intended to present himself as an honest and objective witness of the VN phenomenon, a good picture will emerge of a soul who may believe himself to be a neutral witness to history, but who in the end cannot escape his political biases. The fact that PBS is running this series is also a good hint that it has been vetted and found to meet the political agenda of PBS. (Note – my wife and I used to be regular financial supporters of PBS ….. until the day we learned that they had delivered over their entire donor list to the Democratic Party.) I will watch it, but with a very jaundiced eye. B
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Garryowen | 06 Oct 2017 4:35 a.m. PST |
Well, I guess I got the answer to my question. A resounding "NO." Maybe my thread did get hijacked just a little bit. Interestingly, I have never seen a single episode of the series and probably never will. From seeing the book based on the series, I thought it was too political for me. Also the politics expressed would probably only make me mad. (I think I just joined the hijackers). I have been wargaming Vietnam for years, but I was hoping it might generate some wargame interest. Doesn't look like it. Tom |
Blutarski | 06 Oct 2017 6:33 a.m. PST |
Sorry about that, Garry Owen. It was not my intention. As far as gaming VN goes, I personally think it is quite under-represented on the tabletop for such a richly variegated war. Over the years, I've gamed convoy ambushes, platoon patrol actions, squad level skirmish ambushes. One of my pet ideas has always been to do a firebase defense game in a manner similar to those great Alamo games run at HMGS cons (although the VC/NVA forces would be limited rather than infinite). There have been some great books out over the past several years which detail such actions. I need to get my AoS rules out first, though. B |
daler240D | 06 Oct 2017 7:02 a.m. PST |
Less so, not that it was high before. Great series though. Unimpeachable balance. |
capt jimmi | 08 Oct 2017 11:41 p.m. PST |
Howdy , late to the discussion ; I haven't seen it yet, but had read (eg Newsweek) it was not such accurate or balanced (unbiased) history. ..but some really great unseen footage and photos. I'm looking forward to seeing it, AFAIK I can't see/view/download it in Australia due to licencing agreements, I see : "We're sorry, but this video is not available in your region due to right restrictions." I see there is also an accompanying 550pg hardcover book for $69 USD (or $99 USD via Penguin).. anyone seen ? (!…and I can buy the soundtrack CD for $32 USD ..hahaha no thanks. ) I'm sorry this documentary didn't live up to the hype , … this is a really complex history that deserves to be discussed well . |
catavar | 10 Oct 2017 1:17 p.m. PST |
I enjoyed it for the information, not inspiration. Like others have mentioned I thought the interviews with the Vietnamese were very interesting. I think it's always a plus to hear from people who were actually involved. I thought the coverage of the protesters was fine until the last few episodes. It seemed (to me) to take up more and more of the documentary. I would rather have had more coverage of what was happening in Vietnam. |
ScottS | 17 Oct 2017 6:40 p.m. PST |
Did Ken Burns' series kill off the Vietnam section of this board? |
GamesPoet | 21 Nov 2017 9:26 p.m. PST |
Burns and Novick seemed to do a solid job of bringing events forward balancing the big picture story with the events that media gave attention, and the stories of the guys and gals fighting and affected by the war. In no way is a TV series going to be able to fully tell all that happened nor pick up every detail of different perspective, yet it can provide a sense of historical context and a flavor of the times. However, it didn't inspire me to game nor buy figures for the Vietnam War. For a long time, the Vietnam War has been too close in time for me to consider it, and I experienced as a young person through witnessing it through TV first, and then movies, and it seemed too close. Then along came my brother's involvement fighting in Iraq, and the Vietnam War started to become more like history than current. And so I'm giving it consideration. |
Sebastian Palmer | 23 Nov 2017 2:55 p.m. PST |
I know I'm coming to this a bit late, but… I really liked the series. It's not perfect, there's very little in this world that is. But it's the best in depth treatment in the televisual history medium that I've seen. We in the U.K. only got 10 of the 18 hours you got stateside. I'm keen to see what got left out of the UK version. I've never really been attracted to anything post WWII, in terms of figures, models and gaming. But seeing this series, and watching a bunch of 'Nam movies recently (all sorts, from Hambuger Hill to Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket to Rescue Dawn), has made me think about buying and building some US choppers. What are those big kind of banana shaped ones? |
Legion 4 | 25 Nov 2017 4:00 p.m. PST |
CH-21 Shawnee aka the flying banana – link |
Haitiansoldier | 31 Jan 2018 9:17 p.m. PST |
I usually don't read books on Vietnam, it makes me very, very angry and sad. However I do enjoy Last Stand at Khe Sanh and have read it multiple times. My favourite battle of the war and maybe I'll game it one day. |
Virginia Tory | 08 Feb 2018 11:17 a.m. PST |
"Well, I guess I got the answer to my question. A resounding "NO." I watched it--there were some interesting interviews (especially on the NVA/VC side), but I swear to God he cherry-picked some of them on the US side. Seriously, Merrill McPeak, a by any measure, was the best they could do for USAF?! I'd have to give it an "eh" because it seemed like the same old theme was being presented. Ho was a hardcore Communist from the beginning. Just look at what happened to his opposition. The rally fascinating bit was the discussion about Tet and how the Communist side really blew it and what they were basing their reasoning on. US wasn't the only side with skewed perceptions. You going to Cold Wars? I'll be doing the Indochina Riverine thing again. Tim |
darthfozzywig | 05 Mar 2018 1:50 p.m. PST |
I'm about halfway through and it's good so far. Lots of good footage and interviews. Not sure what some of the negative posters are looking for. Maybe Ken would somehow unearth the secret footage that shows the US actually won the war? |