"Favorite rules for large scale Franco Prussian War" Topic

Was wondering what people like for large scale Franco Prussian war. I'm thinking a stand equals a company up to a stand equals a regiment. What are your favorite FPW rules and why? I should also mention, I'm using 28mm figures.

Since we helped him develop them, we use the late Larry Brom's "Chassepot and Needlegun" rules (which are also useful for other second half of 19th Century conflicts). Why? Mainly because we are comfortable with Larry's gaming philosophy (Have fun!) and because these rules, to our understanding, appear to recreate the flow of the battles of the period in a toy-soldier fashion.

The basic maneuver units are infantry battalions (of 6 stands), cavalry regiments (of 4 stands or of 8 half stands), and artillery batteries (of 3 stands). The sequence is "I move, you move" followed by weapons fire then close combat. You can obtain the rules from the Brom sisters at sergeants3.com .

Our forces are in 25/28mm size but I feel for this period 10mm or 15mm size are better, maybe even 6mm. In a one on one fight, the French chassepot range can punish the Germans before they can close while the German artillery can do the same to the French, which was historical. But the Prussians tended to "march to the gunfire" while the French didn't. Using smaller size figures on a large playing surface allows the German commander to bring in his flanking divisions to overpower the French defenders.

You can see several older battle reports here:
link (25/28mm)
link (25/28mm)
link (15mm)
link (15mm)
link (15mm)

And some of my blog posts are here: link

Jim

Age of Valor (Age of Eagles supplement). Based off Fire and Fury. Units are Brigades/Large regiments.

AgeofEagles.com

They Died for Glory hands down

Originally published in the Courier was later published as a stand alone rule set

While I have the full set – I still use the short set included in the Courier to introduce new people to the rules and the period.

link
This site has list of chapters, basing and more

I play They Died fo Glory in 28mm, have also played Black Powder with a few adaptations from the internet.

TDfG have the French in small bns of 16 figs the Prussians and allies bns of 20 figs. Like most FPW systems the Chasspot and Prussian Arty play a big factor.

A few links:
link
link

Tally Ho!

For doing the large FPW battles I like Bloody Big Battles. I think it covers the period well with enough differentiation that Prussians feel different than French. While I like They Died for Glory I don't believe it's applicable for large battles as it's, if I remember correctly, 20 figures per battalion for Prussians and somewhat less for French.

For the big fights, Bloody Big Battles.

All of the above would be good rules. A lot depends on which level of play do you want? If I was going to do this period again (like I need another hole in my head), I'd choose a smaller figure size such as 15mm or 10mm and a rule set that would allow one to fight battles with multiple divisions on each side using no more than a 8' to 12' x 6' table. I think C&N, AoV, and TDfG would work well with any of the sizes while BBB seems to be designed for 6mm size. I'd have to caveat this advice since I've only played C&N.

Good gaming to you!

Jim

no more than a 8' to 12' x 6' table

"No more than"? LOL! That's what I consider the maximum size range for a RLT (Real Life Table™).

I'm watching this thread with interest. I'd still like to find rules that let me show each battalion (or at least regiment) with its unique uniforms and flags, without getting bogged down in the minutiae of battalion command. This concept seems to exist in 1870, and ACW rules like Pickett's Charge and Fields of Blue and Grey (theoretically – I've played neither, only skimmed them). I'm no longer a fan of amorphous brigade-sized units of miniatures.

- Ix

Two more sets of rules at least worth an honorable mention:
1870, billed as "grand tactical" rules for playing entire FPW battles
Rank and File by Crusader Games.

I've never played 1870 and probably won't, but I bought the rulebook because it's an awesome resource, has lovely pictures, is very well researched, and I like some of the rules concepts.

I have played Rank and File (for ACW), and while I consider the near-absence of C3 mechanics to be a detraction, it plays *very* quickly and it's very easy to learn. I felt it needed a little more chrome, but the basic move/combat mechanics are pretty sound and very streamlined.

FWIW, I don't recommend any rules for the period. I'm just adding some food for thought.

- Ix

Bloody Big Battles is what we use with 10mm

Second vote for Chassepot and Needlgun. Though I've played and own a copy of They Died for Glory. My armies are like Jim's 28mm scale.

Bruce W, the writer of 1870, has a new version out 1871 which is essentially a fast play version of 1870. I like the rules but I still prefer Bloody Big Battles.

With regard to BBB it's figure scale agnostic and can be scaled to any size.

Volley & Bayonet deserves to be mentioned in this thread also.

Lascaris (or anyone else)

Are you able to tell us whether the scenarios included with the 1871 rules are different to those that were included with 1870?

My apologies for departing from the original topic.

Thank you

Thanks Lascaris, I didn't know about 1871.

It's expensive! link

Does it still use a simultaneous move system?

- Ix

We have played several games using the "Black Powder" rules.
Our miniatures are 10mm, from Perrin. 20 figs are based on a 3" x 3" base, to equal one Regiment.
They look like Regiments, when you see these large bases with many figs on it.
Cavalry is based smaller numbers on smaller stands.
Artillery is individually based.
We use BP because the group is very familiar with the rules and they are simple enough for a many player game.
we use the 1870 rules as our Technical Adviser.
A great period.

The scenarios in 1871 are new. It is simultaneous movement.

Thank you Lascaris.

I am planning to use Brigade Fire and Fury, with most of the Age of Valour modifications to Age of Eagles, but it is worth buying 1871 for the scenarios alone.

Regards

Large scale FPW is very well served by Bloody Big Battles. No need to worry about how many men per figure. All you need to worry about is pointing your army in the right direction and hoping the divisional and brigade commanders do the right thing.

Take a look at the Corlears Hook Fencibles blog – they fought the entire FPW campaign with BBB.
link

Chris

Bloody Big BATTLES!
link
bloodybigbattles.blogspot.co.uk

What is big?
Best hands down, is 1870 or the lightened ( for some maybe even enlightened?) version 1871.
Nothing says you cannot adapt the distances to 28mm though to have a signifiacant enough space, because of the 28mm scale, you will need a lot of space. You will with any system that makes sense.

Moreover his rules have adaptations for various sizes of fighting, one unit a bn but actually a rgt down to bns and companies.
And he knows what he writing about, not necessarily the case with most rules writers.

One thing I do like is the spectacle in TDfG with a Corps of 20 fig Bns charging across the table!

Tally Ho!

I would recommend Black Powder Rules. Hope it helps.

As always, comments are appreciated.

Take care

Andy

Thanks everyone. I leaning towards BBB or 1871. From skimming the rules they seem very different. BBB it seems regiments are deployed in one formation, leaders are assigned to divisions based on how well they perfomed in the actual battles (French may only get a corps command, Prussians corps and division commanders). I like friction in command, but not sure I want players chained to an historic general who didn't act. 1871 stands have looser formations. It seems I'd only have to slightly increase the size of the stands to accommodate 28mm figs. I'd be able to deploy more of my beloved mitrailleuses with 1871 as stands are batteries. Thats from a quick going over the rules. BBB seems very popular, 1871 not as well known. Any further thoughts on BBB or 1871? Believe it will be one of these two.

If you want to see collected reviews of BBB and player comments:
link

French passivity and lack of active Generals in BBB FPW scenarios don't just represent individual commanders' limitations, they reflect French doctrine and their lack of int picture. French players need to live with those factors.

Chris

I agree about French doctrine. My only worry was the French would be so passive they wouldn't be fun to play.
From what I've read people seem to like the rules, so I guess that isn't the case. If I can figure it out, I may try mounting that will work for both rules.

I haven't got the 1871 rules yet, but I will buy them from the scenarios. My experience of playing 1870 is that thevrules are fine if you have Bruce Weigle there to run the game for you, but not so good if you don't. Obviously, some people must play Bruce's rules, but my impression is that most people buy Bruce's publications for the brilliant support resources which they contain. Personally, i would go with a variant of Fire and Fury over BBB.

We play the war of 1866 with 6cm wide stand in 28mm.

We use Grand Tactical rules by Bruce Weigel. One stand is one bataillon.

I can also recommend "Too the last Gaiter button" with some house rules. (Double the combat dice, the original is not bloody enough.)

Decebalus, can I ask you what is the depth of your stands? How many figures? What size/how do you mount artillery? Thanks!

Sorry for answering so late. I didnt saw your question before.

We use 6cm*5cm deep. IMO non square bases look better, because they resemble more a unit. 5 figures per base, 3 figures with skirmisher bases.

Cavalry and artillery is 6cm*8cm.

Hmmm….. Which rules give the easier/faster play: 1870 OR 1871 ?
Ta

1871 are apparently a streamlined set of 1870. I've only played 1870 and although they have excellent research and scenarios I found the rules quite busy. Thus 1871 is probably your choice, it has all the experiences of Bruce Weigle's other systems 1859 and 1866.