"Identifying two Napoleonic Shakos" Topic

I've blogged over here

link

about two antique Shako's a dealer is offering. One they say is an Imperial Guard Chasseur and the Other Kingdom of Naples. I'd love to know what you think.

Without ever seeing one live or living picture but pretty sure its not Russian. They look in good shape, and relize colors can fade a lot in 200 years.

This one is like most uniform prints show
link

They look Austrian.

The red shako could just be Young Guard 1813. Not everyone shows them with shako rouleau.

Yellow lace and indeed what looks like a white, blue red cockade. No evidence of any way to fix the eagle plate though.

Odd that the lace band seems too low on the crown. Probably much restoration.

Imagine anyone even thinking of paying such a sum without a definite provenance!

Now if this proved to be Col Heymes' headgear, as seen on the Waterloo panorama….yes, maybe!

The auction listing does indeed say it is Young Guard issued in 1813 in limited quantity. They claim that some were issued without the plate. Looks to be in good condition, but yes for that price I'd want some evidence of provenance.

I'd be wary too. It's not really an area where you can compare lots of examples to get a good idea what you're looking at either.

As an aside here's a site that makes astonishingly good aged replicas of military headgear, Napoleonic as well as world wars and civil war.

link

Makes you a little nervous when you see the skills of a clever replicator who knows his stuff.

I actually own 14 head pieces from the 1st empire including 4 French shakos, a Russian 1812 shako, and my prized piece – an Austrian dragoon helmet and my advice to potential collectors -- if it looks real and you like it and can afford it, then buy it.
If you really want real "provenance" huge chance it is a known family" and the prices will be far beyond these.

Real problem is for the centennial of Waterloo in 1915 there were alot of renacactment uniforms made -- they were made in the old ways and now they also look old ???
Always buy from reputable sources -- all my purchases were made with the assistance of the late Shep Paine,, Todd Fisher, and Alfred Umay.

Regards
Russ Dunaway

wow @tin hat and Old Glory that it really interesting

Many of the later French Shakos were constructed primarily from cardboard and then covered in felt.

Regards
Russ Dunaway

I realize 1915 was the centennial of Waterloo- but that simply cannot have been the moment when anyone wanted to celebrate the defeat of France by an Anglo-German alliance, could it? Let alone the travel difficulties and the actual ongoing hostilities…..

Common knowledge among collectors.
Many of the celebrations were actually aimed at cementing the relationship at that time between France and GB.
As the Germans actually occupied the battlefield at that time there was obviously no celebrations done there, however there was a huge rumor that German soldiers were tearing down the lions mound.
There were still many celebrations.

Regards
Russ Dunaway

I'd love a French shako.

Trying to decide between that and a 95ths shako.

Thoughts?

There are several places you can purchase really good replicas.

Regards
Russ Dunaway

@ tin hat

I'm astonished at that site. What is the legitimate point of making faking antiques? Companies that make reproduction antique furniture do not as a rule try to pass it off as real.

4th Cuirassier: If you are open with them being fake antiques, I can see a legimitate point of making them. For example, if I would like to have a shako that looks like an antique, but can't afford one, I would happily buy a cheaper copy as long as long as the maker is clear that it is just that, a replica.

Reputable producers of fake antiques will always have tags marking them as reproduction.

The second one is not likely to be from the reign of Joseph Bonaparte, nor is it Russian.

The two-headed eagle with sword and orb is a Hapsburg or Spanish Bourbon symbol. The Russian has sceptre and orb, and the shield on the breast is Saint George. I think that the plaque here has been cut out from a grenadier or fusilier mitre plate and attached to an Austrian shako. It may be that the plate is indeed from the Kingdom of Naples pre 1806 (hence the styled "N" logo). But if used at all by Joseph Napolean, it would have immediately been corrected by his brother, would not so easily tolerate the Hapsburg imagery.

Joseph Napoleon had this monogram :
link

King "Joaquim" Murat had this one (example from Berg, but retained in Naples) :

Not an Austrian Shako as it is not got a double peak or bill?

Regards
Russ Dunaway

Russ,
Maybe 1815-1820+ Austrian ?
Like these :
link

Perhaps? I really cannot speak of much after the 1st empire as I loose all interest.
It is common knowledge that there are many "Frankenstein" pieces floating around that are indeed truly old in each seperate piece of the monsters own right??

Regards
Russ Dunaway

Russ,
Agreed.
I lose interest after the 1er Empire, too. But when you see something promoted as "1er Empire" other than at the best auction houses, it can be useful to check *forward* for similar examples.

For the first one ….

I think there are parts of a shako of the 2e gardes d'honneur here.
--- The visor and the medusa heads (as much as I can see) look correct, but missing their silver or tin/nickel plating
--- As far as I know, only the 2e gardes d'honneur used the chain type chinstrap – although the chain shown here is not a correct one
--- The cocarde and the gallons around the top and bottom of the shako body are of poor materials (and the cocarde should be white-red-blue) and appear to be an attempt to make the thing look like a shako of the chasseurs ŕ cheval de la jeune garde 1813 issue.
--- It also looks like all or part the body of the shako is a replacement/repair – hence the black leather showing well above the upper gallon

You lot know a lot!