"CY6 LMGs" Topic
32 Posts
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Yellow Admiral | 27 Sep 2017 5:51 p.m. PST |
Through 2016 and early 2017, my CY6 group played its way through the Days of Glory and Over the Channel (Battle of Britain) scenario books. In the scenarios over France, I was flying German planes, so I was happy with Bf-190s and unhappy with Bf-110s, exactly as expected. When we switched to the Battle of Britain, I switched sides and flew Hurricanes and Spitfires, and by the end I didn't want to play a BoB scenario ever again. The problem was that Hurricanes and Spitfires are armed with LMGs, and in CY6 LMGs are triple-blighted: d4(-) for damage (0-3 hits), more likely to get zero hits (25% of d4 rolls, 16.6% of d6 rolls, 10% of d10 rolls), and critical Robustness roll failure requires a difference of 5 (as opposed to 4 for HMGs and 3 for cannons). The result is that in general, Hurricanes and Spitfires only wounded their opponents, so it usually required two good hits to down each plane. Over the course of multiple scenarios, this had a markedly telling effect, with the Allies winning only 1/3 of the scenarios, most of those only barely, and typically only the scenarios where the Bf-109s were absent or handicapped. (I joked after losing the "Shaking the Stuka Myth" scenario that the Stukas had proven so robust and effective, they would surely terrorize Britain throughout Operation Sealion…) Since most LMGs are "additional" weapons on cannon-armed planes or bomber defensive guns, I had never noticed a problem before. After my experience with the BoB, I've been thinking this is a rules design problem that needs fixing. I have a few ideas:
- Count LMGs and HMGs together on the Robustness failure threshold (diff of 4).
- Convert LMGs to d4 instead of d4(-) (1-4 hits, not 0-3).
- Give a +1 or +2 "to hit" bonus for firing a lot of guns together, on the rationale that a big cone of fire is easier to aim than a narrow one. This would benefit the "hail of fire" approach built into Hurricanes and Spitfires without giving an accidental leg up to bombers or mixed-armament fighters.
I'm curious if anyone else has encountered this issue, or even better found any good fixes for it. - Ix |
Sundance | 27 Sep 2017 6:47 p.m. PST |
Understand your frustration with the inability to obtain a critical failure, but have frequently shot down, and had shot down, aircraft from multiple hits. Never saw it as a problem, but I don't think we've played many scenarios that pit LMG armed a/c with cannon armed a/c. Usually if we have something with LMGs all or most of the a/c in the scenario have LMGs. |
Yellow Admiral | 27 Sep 2017 10:11 p.m. PST |
Like I said, I never thought there was a problem until the British aircraft were completely overmatched for an entire BoB campaign. I think it's perfectly acceptable that the British LMG fighters should have a little more trouble bringing down opponents – the rifle-caliber ammo just didn't do enough damage to ever-more-robust German planes, and the RAF introduced cannons on their fighters soon after the BoB. I just suspect the results of gaming the BoB with CY6 are too lopsided. - Ix |
Vigilant | 28 Sep 2017 3:41 a.m. PST |
Given that the rules have been in this format for 10 years now and are very popular I don't think that this is really a major problem. It can be frustrating when you have poor dice rolls, but that is part of the process of gaming. By all means use house rules if you want, but be aware that the concentration of fire aspect is covered by the range bonus, so if you add another modifier you are distorting in the opposite direction. And a wide arc of fire would be less effective than a concentrated one because of the lightness of ammunition. Personally I think that the rules accurately reflect the problems of the period. |
Blutarski | 28 Sep 2017 7:44 a.m. PST |
Go here - PDF link - for a useful discussion of weapon lethality in air-to-air combat (see chapter 1), especially chart 1-1 facing page 6, which suggests the following lethality characteristics - Fighter (Spitfire, Hurricane) 8 x MG Lethality factor = 13.6 Fighter (ME109E-4) 2 x 20mm cannon 2 x MG Lethality factor = 35.2 One suggestion – it might be interesting to explore duration of fire. The British fighters IIRC carried about 1000 rounds per gun for a fire duration of about 50 seconds. The German ME109E4 only carried 60 rounds per 20mm cannon for a fire duration of only 5-6 seconds (three bursts?). Something along the line of limiting the number of attacks might help to even up the fight without upsetting the rule mechanics (which IMO are probably legit). B
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(Leftee) | 28 Sep 2017 9:02 a.m. PST |
Agree with above. Multiple accounts of sieved German aircraft that make it home. I think it was a Ballentine 'Luftwaffe' book that had a very telling diagram of weight of shot in a 2 second burst. 303 was quite light compared to even a P47 let alone a Typhoon/Tempest. Try an Oscar or Nate vs a P40. I would rather pit my Veteran Oscar pilot vs a Green Buffalo or P40. Better gunnery, better use of ammo, better ability to tail, has the inititive. Experience in CY6 matters. Also, remember the critical hit roll, I believe counts even if damage saved(?). |
Yellow Admiral | 28 Sep 2017 11:20 a.m. PST |
Try an Oscar or Nate vs a P40. The nice thing about that matchup is that it's even despite the asymmetry – the Oscar needs at least twice as many shots to kill a P-40, but the maneuverability and pilot skill advantage gives them at least that many more shots during actual combat. For a really asymmetrical scenario, I enjoyed the Unabashed Cowards scenario from the Road to Rabaul campaign – Oscars vs. B-25 gunships! The B-25s tend to die of Lucky Hits, while the Oscars die-and-recycle like Zulus. - Ix |
Yellow Admiral | 28 Sep 2017 11:20 a.m. PST |
Thanks Blutarski for the PDF. Nice find, even with all the pages mixed up.
One suggestion – it might be interesting to explore duration of fire. […] Something along the line of limiting the number of attacks might help to even up the fight without upsetting the rule mechanics. The rules already address this pretty well, and speaking from experience, as an RAF pilot I almost never ran out of ammo, but as a Luftwaffe pilot I ran out of cannon ammo with extremely inconvenient frequency. My standing joke for most of the 1940 campaign games was that I was suffering divine punishment for playing a Nazi… and my dice luck did everything possible to support that ludicrous argument.However, you did just get right at the heart of what is missing from the Over the Channel scenarios; the real issues balancing the air campaign over Britain were the short endurance of the Bf-109s, the coordinated management of RAF attacks over the course of a whole Luftwaffe bombing mission (defense in depth, if you will), and to a lesser extent the ammo endurance of the various fighter designs. The Spits and Hurricanes may have had a lot of trouble downing bombers, but they could keep at it all day, once they neutralized the fighter cover. In CY6 terms, that either means interminable games of unescorted bombers on a scrolling table, special scenario rules forcing German fighters to leave early and/or bombers to suffer casualties after exiting, a "shift change" of extra British fighters entering the fight halfway through, linked scenarios to play the entire bombing run (e.g.: fighters vs. escort fighters, then fighters vs. full bombers, then fighters vs. empty bombers, then fighters vs. surviving empty bombers, etc.), or some other mitigating factor. The OTC scenario book did only a few of those things, and not very consistently. It is, however, food for thought for future BoB CY6 gaming. Leaving the special conditions in the scenario rules avoids the unintended consequences that inevitably crop up from messing with the rules mechanics. It might go a long way to mitigate the gunpower disparity if RAF pilots feel safer and suffer a smaller VP penalty when retreating from the combat zone than the Germans. - Ix |
Yellow Admiral | 28 Sep 2017 12:16 p.m. PST |
Vigilant said:
Given that the rules have been in this format for 10 years now and are very popular I don't think that this is really a major problem. Sorry, that's not a good argument. Popularity in miniature wargames never equals "good simulation", and often not even "balanced game". I like CY6 a lot and I've played it over a hundred times by now, but I still recognize a lot of problems in the mechanics. In particular I find the scenario books to be full of play balance and editing issues. The real issue with BoB gaming is figuring out the best way to balance the game so both sides have a chance at victory, while retaining the feel of the issues confronting both sides faced by the players' historical counterparts. At the end of OTC, I didn't feel the RAF had enough of a winning chance. Maybe the problems are all in the scenario book(s), not in the rules mechanics, but I'm not so sure. I also missed any real feel for Hurricanes having notably robust airframes, Merlin engines having negative-G cutout problems, Bf-109s suffering dreadfully short loiter times, constant RAF pressure on Luftwaffe bombing missions, etc., but I'm pretty sure those things should be covered by scenario rules (except maybe Hurricane airframe robustness). FWIW, I'm still unsure why CY6 weapons get a double-dip for caliber (damage dice size *and* Robustness roll differential), which effectively makes the differences in weapon types a geometric regression rather than linear. Maybe that was a deliberate, calculated idea, but I'm still unconvinced by the result, and I feel like CY6 LMGs may be just a bit too ineffective. I am more inclined to suspect that firepower triumphalism infected the rules design – less than usual in American rules, but maybe still there. - Ix |
BattlerBritain | 28 Sep 2017 1:13 p.m. PST |
Just try the 1-4 does damage. It's a simple change and will have an effect and maybe not too drastic an effect. It's also an authorised change in later scenario books and rules, eg Jet Age. Oh and Spits had about 300rds per gun which gave about 15 secs of fire. Hurris had about the same. |
Yellow Admiral | 28 Sep 2017 2:00 p.m. PST |
Another idea: During the BoB, the RAF started using incendiary ammo to increase the hitting power of their fighters, and it seems to have had a positive effect on kill ratio. A more subtle scenario-specific change might be to make lucky hits from RAF fighters count on the "Cannon" tables instead of the "MG" tables (given that the major difference seems to be explosions and flame from cannon hits). - Ix |
skirmishcampaigns | 28 Sep 2017 7:34 p.m. PST |
Guys – just a quick note to say we put a lot of research into this very topic and feel the rules are fine. Note that the U.K. and most nations quickly up-gunned from what we call LMGs (rifle caliber weapons) as quickly as they could after 1940 as their relative ineffectiveness became clear. Note later versions of the Spitfire. The best proof for this is to look at where fighter armament goes between 1939 and 1945 (note how few serious mainline fighters still use rifle-caliber weapons). Finally, look for the Luftwaffe study from 1944(?) that notes how many rounds of each caliber are required to take down a B-17 – I think you will see we were generous when it comes to LMGs and destroying aircraft quickly. |
Yellow Admiral | 29 Sep 2017 2:54 p.m. PST |
I acknowledge that the RAF had a problem shooting down enemy planes with fighters armed entirely with LMGs (they were even trying before the BoB to correct that problem); not only do I expect this issue to be reflected in my games, I would even be disappointed if it weren't. The real problem I want to "fix" is that the BoB is just no fun to play in CY6. The Battle of Britain is a classic dogfight matchup with a strong attraction to gamers, and I would like to be able to use CY6 to game it without dooming the RAF players, but my CY6 group played 1940 scenarios for over a year, and well before the end the RAF players were groaning before each game even started. One player even quit and another switched sides. As the rules stand now, RAF fighters can't shoot down enough planes before the artificial scenario timeout, are overmatched by Bf-109s, and are generally doomed by even the smallest of bad luck streaks. The Over The Channel campaign was so frustrating, I never even got around to building my planes for it. Before I sell them all off, I'm looking for ways to rebalance the genre so that my CY6 group will agree to play the BoB again, preferably retaining (or even enhancing) the problems each side faced as interesting challenges rather than dreaded obstacles to victory. Thus this thread. In the near-absence of constructive discussion here, I am inclined to agree with BattlerBritain that switching LMGs from d4(-) to d4 is the easiest solution and most moderate solution. Fire from 1 or 2 LMGs shouldn't get significantly more dangerous, but the RAF fighters will be more likely to cause damage while still pretty unlikely to shoot down opponents outright. The Bf-110 might get an accidental boost, but it's already a buzz-saw that obliterates most BoB opponents in one shot, so I'm not sure it will be noticeably deadlier. It would be even more moderate to switch from d4(-) to d4 at only short range and below, so I'll try it that way first. - Ix |
Blutarski | 29 Sep 2017 4:18 p.m. PST |
Here are some suggestions (caveat: from someone who has only played the CY6 WW1 retro-fit)….. > Any German fighters suffering X damage are immediately obliged to break off action and flee for France, with Y percentage of them failing to make it. > Corollary: any British pilot shot down over England enjoys a 50/50 chance of surviving to carry on the fight next game. > Limit the number of game turns the 109s can spend before they reach Bingo Fuel and are forced to head home; allow the British to pursue. > Use "Big Wings" to swamp the Germans numerically. > Limit the initial flexibility of the Germans by tying their speed and altitude at game start to their bombers. > Give the British a big positional advantage (up sun, height advantage, rear approach, etc) to reflect the assistance of fighter ground control and radar tracking incoming German strikes. > Force the Germans to make an AA Risk throw every turn they spend < 3000 ft. No idea if you are using all, some or none of these play balancing approaches, but I offer them up FWIW.
B
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Yellow Admiral | 30 Sep 2017 11:10 a.m. PST |
All good suggestions. Some of them are built into scenarios in the DoG and OTC, most are already on my list for self-generated scenarios, a few I hadn't thought of (or haven't thought of a good way to implement). - Ix |
ChrisBBB2 | 06 Oct 2017 5:01 a.m. PST |
"I'm still unsure why CY6 weapons get a double-dip for caliber (damage dice size *and* Robustness roll differential), which effectively makes the differences in weapon types a geometric regression rather than linear. Maybe that was a deliberate, calculated idea, but I'm still unconvinced by the result, and I feel like CY6 LMGs may be just a bit too ineffective. I am more inclined to suspect that firepower triumphalism infected the rules design – less than usual in American rules, but maybe still there." The damage dice size is directly related to weight of firepower a weapon delivers. I was involved in helping Scott to develop the Robustness roll differential (among other CY6 mechanisms). We looked at the extreme cases. A flimsy R0 plane stopping a 30mm round obviously had to have a catastrophic result in most cases. Conversely, as several comments above acknowledge, even early fighters can shrug off a lot of LMG hits. The spread of differentials reflects these facts. No American firepower triumphalism from me – I'm a Brit. :-) I hope you find a way for your group to enjoy BoB games. Chris Bloody Big BATTLES! link bloodybigbattles.blogspot.co.uk |
Yellow Admiral | 06 Oct 2017 6:16 p.m. PST |
No American firepower triumphalism from me – I'm a Brit. :-) I thought the polite term these days was "Briton". :-) As long as I have the attention of actual CY6 designers, I should ask how you feel about my proposed house rule (treat LMG fire as d4 instead of d4(-) within ranges of 1-3 hexes). - Ix |
ChrisBBB2 | 08 Oct 2017 12:22 p.m. PST |
Scott is the ultimate authority as CY6 is his game. But it sounds to me like a marginal tweak which shouldn't grossly distort the game and might give the effect you're looking for. There might even be a laws-of-physics case to justify it – high-velocity rounds having more momentum at short range but air resistance reducing the impact of lighter rounds more rapidly than heavier ones. Anyway, your house, your rules! Try it and let us know how it feels? Chris PS dunno about "Briton" – sounds kind of archaic – but there are worse things to be called. |
Blutarski | 15 Oct 2017 3:42 p.m. PST |
Found this in my archives & thought it might be interesting: U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey Military Analysis Division Report on Armament in the Air War 1939-1945 Published August 1945
Co-efficient values for the operational classes: [ 1 ] 7.92mm (.30, .303) – Value 0.25 ( a ) This category will not penetrate the average aircraft armor and has negligible incendiary value. [ 2 ] 13mm (.50) – Value 1.0 ( a ) All other class values are based on a comparison with this category. ( b ) This type was limited principally to use as an incendiary. The plain AP projectile was of very little value [ 3 ] 15mm – Value 1.5 ( a ) This category is intermediate to the 13mm and 20mm types. [ 4 ] 20mm – Value 2.0 ( a ) The Cal. .50 API required an average of slightly more than one round to insure gas tank ignition. This 20mm class had a filler capacity of approximately five times that of the 13mm. [ 5 ] 30mm – Value 4.0 ( a ) Structural damage tests show the 30mm inflicting more than four times the damage of the 20mm. The filler capacity of this class is six times that of the 20mm. - – - FWIW. B |
Mark Barker | 17 Oct 2017 1:45 p.m. PST |
I've not got the BoB supplement for CY6, but the base rulebook makes a common mistake with the 109 of the Battle of Britain era and this can have a big effect on exchange ratios in any game system. As all the books tell you, 109E is armed with 2xRCMG and 2x20mm cannon and therefore outguns the British fighters. Which does not explain why 109s were being shot down over Britain as late as October 1940 only carrying 4 RCMGs … The reason for this is that the Luftwaffe production and supply situation was stretched and there was a wide variety of aircraft modification and armament standards. At no time during the Battle was the Luftwaffe completely fitted out with E-3s (or E-4s), so you can vary the armament mix to reflect the challenges they faced. Some shot down aircraft were reported as being found with only 1 cannon fitted, which shows the logistics pressure they must have been under ! The 20mm MG-FF was a hasty fit to counter the fact that the early E models were outgunned 2 to 1 by the British fighters and to further confuse the situation (and to provide wargamers with another handy way to balance scenarios) the improved MG-FF(M) fit was also progressively introduced from May 1940 onwards. The MG-FF shows the problem with basing damage purely on weight of firepower, as the MG-FF(M) fired a lighter shell than the MG-FF. The shell had much thinner walls though, meaning that you could pack in more explosive filler so it packed a much greater punch. Being lighter it also travelled faster and with a flatter trajectory than the original round. (and you could not just load MG-FF(M) ammo in the MG-FF in case you were wondering. Life as a Luftwaffe stores clerk/armourer must have a bundle of fun !). Even if you do not want to faff about with the E-3/E-4 difference, introducing the E-1 RCMG armament is realistic and a great balancer. As Blutarski mentions the cannon should get 3 bursts only, then the nose MGs have enough ammo to blaze away all day. But now your 109 is outgunned 4 to 1, which might have a sobering effect on how aggressive you feel… A final word on the end-of-war gunnery analysis that Blutarski has found. Contemporary gunnery tests (late 1940, firing at a surplus Blenheim from 180 metres from behind) identified that the standard British and German incendiary rounds set light to the Blenheim's fuel tanks with every 10th hit. The 'de Wilde' incendiary (the wartime round being an almost complete redesign by British armament officers, the name was kept for security purposes) was found to be twice as effective (i.e. causing a fire every 5th hit). Supply limitations on this ammunition meant that RAF fighter had one or two belts fed with this round. AP was found to be effective at penetrating fitted armour but only when it struck the armour directly face-on. In most cases penetrating the fuselage skin or clipping structure caused the bullet to tumble, in which case it was ineffective when it got to the armour. In summary, if you don't want to fiddle with the core mechanics (and I've not played CY6 enough to have a view) then you can certainly fiddle with the firepower of the opposition with historical justification. Get back in the air, man. Don't you know there's a war on ? Mark Barker |
Blutarski | 18 Oct 2017 8:16 a.m. PST |
Sorry I can't provide the citation reference, but I thought I would share this item that I recall from my long ago research on the Browning 50cal as an air-to-air weapon. Damage effect analysis revealed that the 50cal only very rarely destroyed an enemy fighter in the air in the sense of shooting off a wing or tail section by a number of concentrated strikes upon a structural member; most such cases of immediate destruction were the result of a sympathetic explosion of fuel tank or ammunition. The majority of enemy a/c losses were the result of a single projectile destroying or compromising a critical system or sub-system: engine, fuel line, cooling system, lubrication system, pilot, flight controls. FWIW. B |
Blutarski | 19 Oct 2017 12:44 p.m. PST |
This thread got me interested in the variegated armament outfits of the LW Bf109s that took part in the Battle of Britain. It proved to be a pretty complex subject. Bf109E-1 – 1183 produced. [2 x 7.92mm MG in wings] + [2 x 7.92mm MG in cowling] Bf109E-2 – "very limited number" built. [2 x 20mm MGFF in wings] + [2 x 7.92mm MG in cowling] + [ x MGFF in nose] > Nose cannon proved very unreliable in service. Bf109E-3 – 1276 produced. [2 x 20mm MGFF in wings] + [2 x 7.92mm MG in cowling] Bf109E-4 – 561 produced. [2 x 20mm MGFF/M in wings] + [2 x 7.92mm MG in cowling] > First appearance of modified MGFF/M 20mm capable of firing MGeschoss high capacity HE rounds. Bf109E-5/-6 – only 29 produced. Dedicated reconnaissance a/c. Bf109E-7 – 438 produced, but only starting in Aug 1940. [2 x 20mm MGFF/M in wings] + [2 x 7.92mm MG in cowling] > Fitted to carry an 80gal drop tank, which extended range to 820 miles but suffered from leakage problems. Based upon some brief interweb research, it <<appears>> that as of 01 July 1940, the E-4 variant represented only about ten percent of the Bf109s actually delivered to the LW. E-4s and E-7s together probably represented only about 20 to 25 percent of the E series produced through the end of 1941. Complicating the issue, however, is the fact that some respectable percentage of the earlier E-1 through E-3 models were upgraded in the field to E-4 armament status. BoB play balancing might make use of this to justify limiting the likelihood of a LW fighter formation flying cannon-armed Bf109s to about 50 pct early in the campaign, with a progressive build-up to 90 or perhaps 100 pct by the end of the campaign. FWIW. B |
Mark Barker | 29 Oct 2017 1:40 p.m. PST |
B, From the combat losses over Britain from July to October that ratio started at 50% and never got over 60%. 40% of the 109s shot down in October were recorded as carrying E-1 armament. By contrast the E-3 had virtually vanished (1% of losses), with units being upgraded in the field to E-4 standard, the most obvious external feature being the revised hood with additional head armour. Best regards, Mark B. |
Yellow Admiral | 30 Oct 2017 8:43 p.m. PST |
I've never encountered the info about E-version variances with real operational figures before. Thanks a lot for posting that. Rating a lot of the Bf-109s with 4x LMGs would certainly balance the fighter equation, though I'm still concerned that Stukas are too tough to down with 8x LMGs. Get back in the air, man. Don't you know there's a war on ? YessirRightawaysirSorrysirI'llgetrighttoit!Sir! LOL! Now I feel guilty for having never even built my Bf-109Es. :-) In the mean time, at least two of us in my group want to try moving on to a North Africa campaign when we finish bombing Rabaul next year. I have a few desert cammo Bf-109Fs and some unpainted metal Bf-109Es which will now get a nice tan + gray + greenspot cammo pattern for that. It might be interesting to see how Hurribombers with 12x LMGs do against those. - Ix |
burntincanada | 31 Oct 2017 4:20 p.m. PST |
8 LMGs will do on average 12 Dmg – which is 7 or better to damage a Stuka. Doesn't seem too tough to me |
GGouveia | 31 Oct 2017 9:47 p.m. PST |
And that is why I don't play cy6. |
WKeyser | 01 Nov 2017 2:51 a.m. PST |
We have played the BoB scenarios in a campaign setting and the LMG issue did bother some of the British players until they noticed that every time they had been shot down they survived but the german player kept losing pilots. We had a campaign with each player having 4 pilots and they would be put in to a scenario randomly, so they would progress from green to vet based on missions flown, enemy shot, enemy shot down and gaining special victory conditions. It was quickly noticed that the Germans kept losing pilots and had fewer pilots that would advance from green to vet than the British due to the ability of the British pilots to survive. The result is that the British started to outclass the Germans so they had that ability to change their plots and became much more lethal even with LMGs.
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Yellow Admiral | 01 Nov 2017 2:07 p.m. PST |
We had a different experience. We were also tracking personal pilots, carried over through multiple campaigns, but partway through the BoB we all just wore out and quit tracking them. Most of us were tired of starting over with green pilots, and one of us had only veterans and an ace which he never got to use. Toward the end, the added tracking paperwork added nothing to the gaming experience, and the personal squadrons were dropped from administrative exhaustion. I think your campaign system sounds superior to ours. Our BoB campaign had no special rules to improve pilot recovery over friendly territory besides the standard rulebook modifiers, and all the cannons shooting at British planes tended to kill pilots before bail-out. Basically, most of the pilots are lost because they're Green pilots making low-odds crew checks. - Ix PS: The experience of tracking personal squadrons convinced me that if I do that again, I'll make personal pilots much more likely to survive than standard scenario cockpit-fillers, on the principle that they're the protagonists of the story, not some random John Smith (or Jan Schmidt or Yamada Taro) NPC. It would probably also be fun to include some randomly generated backstory to describe the experience of being shot down and making it back to base, if it can be done without excessive paperwork burden. |
Yellow Admiral | 01 Nov 2017 2:36 p.m. PST |
8 LMGs will do on average 12 Dmg – which is 7 or better to damage a Stuka. Doesn't seem too tough to me Your uncritical casual glance at the stats that completely ignores the entire preceding conversation is unconvincing. Go play all the Days of Glory and Over the Channel scenarios back-to-back, and then try again. I'll wait. With LMGs a Stuka is usually only damaged (shot down outright only on snake eyes with that average 12 damage), so it's usually two hits to kill one. A fighter can't just hang out behind a Stuka pouring bullets into it for multiple turns unless he wants to be shot down by cannon-armed escorts, but it's difficult to figure out how many hits is "average" in a dynamic furball game, but "seat of the pants" judgement seemed to be about one hit every 1.5-2 turns (after a few turns of approach). So, in the lucky event you get to line up 3-4 shots on the same Stuka, you can get it down. Meanwhile, German fighters getting one hit every 1.5-2 turns (or maybe every 3-4 turns with Bf-110s – it's hard to line up shots while flying a pig) take out a Hurricane or Spitfire more often than not, steadily reducing the number of British planes shooting at Stukas. Other German bombers are only equally tough (R2), but the extra defensive armament makes the skies just a bit pricklier for the British fighters. The general pattern of a BoB game sees lots of German bombers escaping (some with airframe damage), the British fighters suffering 50% or worse casualties and a few retreats (out of ammo, sometimes engine damage), and a better than 1-to-1 kill:loss ratio for Bf-109s (maybe even or worse for Bf-110s). - Ix |
Yellow Admiral | 01 Nov 2017 2:58 p.m. PST |
And that is why I don't play cy6. Just for the record – I am still having a great time playing CY6. I just find little things like the BoB matchup that need to be improved from time to time. I'm busy writing rules for a multiplayer North Africa campaign right now, and shopping for the planes. I have 3 other Pacific theater campaigns almost ready as well. I don't find a lot of rules that inspire me this much. - Ix PS: Except I'm pretty much done with CY6 Jet Age, at least for the Korean War. It doesn't feel right to me. |
WKeyser | 02 Nov 2017 1:55 a.m. PST |
Hi Guys here is the campaign system we are using, I got a lot of the ideas from a great set of WWI aircombat rules called In the Clouds of Glory. We have used these for BoB and 8th Airforce. Check your 6- Campaign Each player will start with three pilots, all will be green with no special abilities. Pilots start as green and roll for random plane if more than one fighter type. The pilot used is also random so on a roll of 1-2 the first pilot 2-3 second 4-6 third, if pilot killed he will be replaced with a new Green pilot. Each pilot is rated in the following categories. To raise the level of one categories is based on the starting skill, so the better the pilot the harder it is to increase the skill Pilot Skills Green, Skilled, etc Flying Green and Average almost the same in CY6 except that Average moves after Green and if he passes his Green Flying skill test he can shift his turn code by one in either direction! Shooting + or – modifiers to hit all shoots Luck + or – modifiers to Robust test (his or his targets) and/or survival test – 1d4. If +2 in luck he may roll two d4 and add them for his survival test only! Must declare when he is combining 2d4 before he rolls. Can only use each luck roll once in a scenario! (Raise to value of 3 costs double experience points) cannot carry over from mission to mission! Re Rolls – Re roll any roll during a mission (the Pilots rolls only), no carry over. (Raise to a value of 3 costs double experience points) Can only use each re roll only once in scenario. Av. Moves as green in CY6 Flying Skill Green Average Skilled Veteran ACE Shooting skill -1 0 0,+1 +1 +2 Luck 0 0 0 1 2 2,3 Re-Rolls 0 1 1 1,2 1,2,3 Tabler did not work so here you go. Green Flying skill Shooting -1 Luck 0 ReRolls 0 Average Flying skill Shooting 0 Luck 0 ReRolls 1 Skilled Flying skill Shooting 0,+1 Luck 1 ReRolls 1
Veteram Flying skill Shooting +1 Luck 2 ReRolls 1,2
Ace Flying skill Shooting +2 Luck 2,3 ReRolls 1,2,3
Pilot must first increase his shooting skills, luck and re-rolls up to the min of the next higher flying skill before he can advance his flying skill.
So an Average pilot with 0 for shooting, and 0 for luck and 1 in rerolls cannot improve his flying skills until he has at least a +1 in luck. Earning experience points After the conclusion of a mission, All pilots and aircrew taking part, are awarded experience point for the following achievements : Taking part in a mission (only if damage, destroy or fire at close range at enemy) regardless the result. 1 Taking part in a mission (only if damage, destroy or fire at close range at enemy) on the winning side. 1 Achieving an air victory. 2 CODE V Achieving a Damaged result on an enemy airplane. 1 CODE D Fulfilling an important mission objective. This objective will be described in the mission brief. 1 Fulfilling part of an important mission objective. This objective will be described in the mission brief. .5 Breaking a plane model -2 Experience Points for Taking part in a mission will only be rewarded for a pilot who fires and damages or destroys an enemy plane, if the pilot has not damaged or destroyed an enemy he will only gain experience points if he fires at an enemy at close range or closer!. Green Pilots will gain experience points for Taking part in a Mission even if they do not manage to fire at an enemy. The cost of raising skills Existing value of skill to be raised cost in experience points to raise skill 1 point, no more than two categories (Green may modify three Categories) may be raised after a mission. The increase must be done immediately after a mission. Any ex. points not used will be available at the end of the next game. Green – 1 Average – 2 Skilled – 4 Veteran – 6 Ace – 8 Remember to roll 1D10 each time a skill is raised. At a result of 10, the pilot receives a Special ability to be rolled on the special ability table. So if the pilot increases more than one skill, roll a d10 for each skill increased. So an average pilot who is on the winning side and scores one kill gains 4 experience points, this means that he may increase two categories as each increase cost 2 Points. Player Pilots in Scenarios The way the player's pilots are put into the campaign scenarios is that the highest experienced pilot is put into the highest ranking pilot in the scenario then the second highest in the second highest ranking pilot in the scenario etc. If there are any scenario pilots with a higher ranking then the gamers after the above replacement, they will remain for the gamer to use!
Ace special abilities 1d6Ace 1d6 1 Confident. I am the greatest! The ever growing confidence of the pilot grants him an extra 1 D6 in his bailout test if shot down and +2 to his Luck score 2 Slippery as an eel. If tailed he does not have to reveal which action he is taking. 3 Test expert. May pick which plane to fly in the scenario 4 Promotion. The pilot rises in ranks. He now has an amount of influence on which missions he wants to fly. Before a mission roll 1d6. On a roll 4-6 he can freely choose whether to take part in the mission. The Ace can replace a randomly selected pilot. 5 Mentor. The pilot shares his knowledge of air fighting before each mission. The player can chose any other pilot from his Squadron who will get good advice. The pilot must be a Green without any victories. This pilot receives an extra Re-roll to be used in this combat. 6 Master marksman When hitting an enemy plane, the pilot can AFTER the result on the hit table is known, voluntarily choose to add OR subtract 1d4 from the hit table result Special pilot abilities 1d20 (only kicks in when pilot is Skilled) may have rolled earlier in his career but will not be activated until he achieves skilled status. 1 Bomber expert. +3 on all to-hits vs Bombers. 2 Twin engine expert. +2 on all Machine gun to hit rolls vrs twin engine enemy planes. 3 Emergency survivor. The pilot gets a -1D4 on any Emergency landing test. A skill he learned the hard way at flying school. Also adds +4 for 6.2 Aircrew Capture or Return roll on page 26. 4 Sticky. The pilot is hard to shake off. When the pilot is tailing he may add +1 column shift, after shifts for skill. 5 Daredevil. The pilot gets a +4 on any Pilot check against a collision, and ending in an enemy occupied space. 6 Weapon expert. The pilot gets a one line shift up on the ammunition depletion table. This pilot knows his gun and hand picks every single cartridge that goes into it. 7 Friends in high places. Pilot can pick which plane to use, this must be after any Ace uses his Test Expert ability 8 Best rigger. The pilot gets a +1D4 on his rolls on the Robustness test. 9 Good Luck Charm. The pilot has a Good Luck Charm. The side of the pilot has one extra re-roll to be used by any of the pilots on his side, however, only once during the combat 10 Leadership. The pilot can exchange his move order (for example if he is an ace he can give a two column shift and his spot in the move sequence to a green pilot) with another pilot during a turn. This can be used only once in each Mission. 11 Tactician. The pilot is a great tactician and can to a degree choose his own altitude and position at game start. Set up, up to 8 hexes from any friendly airplane also + or – 2 TAL. He sets up after all other planes. 12 Cool aim. The pilot has an uncanny ability to only open fire when he has a good bead on the target. His out of ammo doubles will be the same as that of an ACE 13 Hard as nails The pilot will not be affected by Pilot wounded on the lucky hits table. If pilot killed result roll a pilot check if he passes then only wounded, ie no affect! Pain is just in the imagination. 14 Old duck hunter. The pilot gets +2 on all side angle shots. The pilot is a natural talent when it comes to deflection shooting.. 15 Pilot hands. The pilot has a delicate feel for his airplane. The pilot will always count one columns shift towards the F Maneuver for loss of speed. 16 Hawk-eyed. The pilot gets a -1d4 on the robustness roll of the enemy's roll. The pilot knows how to aim. 17 Cool headed. The pilot can add one ability type for movement order per game scenario. That is if he is a Vet pilot he can opt to move in the Ace movement order. 18 Cheating Death. The pilot will always have a chance of surviving any otherwise deadly situation. He will add 1d8 to his (robustness test) in the Aircrew Condition test 6.1 page 26, to survive any certain death situation. 19-20 Free choice of of one special pilot ability from this table. Survival for bail out is that which is in the 8th Airforce book. So over enemy territory it is more likely that your pilot will not return etc. Rules modifications to CY6 Dive/Climb Firing up or down If you dive then you can fire at any target below and same level, you count each level diff as one hex for range. However if the target is only one level below you then just count hexes to target. If you are in the rear arc of a target and you are more than one level below then it counts as deflection shot. If you climb then you can fire at any target above and same height, you count each level diff as one hex for range. However, if the target is only one level above you than just count hexes to target. If you are in the rear arc of a target and you are more than on level below then it counts as a deflection shot. Special maneuvers- any plane performing a special maneuver can only fire up or down as per the rules. But also can fire at enemy on his level. Table Firing down you can not fire at a steeper angle than 45 degrees nor up at more than 60 degrees, see tables. Green crew and red maneuvers Green crew attempting to perform red maneuver or special maneuver (Split S etc) Roll air crew check +4 mod to die. If plotted red maneuver than on failed air crew check the turn will be the next yellow maneuver. If plotted special man. And failed air crew check then the plan flies straight but gains or losses the appropriate altitude levels per the man. Collisions Gamer must roll a 12 on a pilot check to end his turn in a hex containing an enemy plane at the same altitude. This means that those pilots who can change their plot must do so if they don't roll a 12. For Pilots who cannot shift their plot then the enemy player can shift the move by one column in any directions, at the discretion of the enemy pilot. (this is intended for our campaign game where a player might be controlling two planes on has his pilot character the other a generic pilot, the collision might be done so that it is easier for his character to shoot down the enemy plane, this will curtail that nasty habit of gamey-ness) Special maneuvers. Depending on the start speed of a plane going into a special maneuver the plane might gain one hex of movement over that indicated in the rules. Immelman For a regular immelman a minimum start speed of 2. If the plane is moving 3 or more then the plane will gain one hex of movement. Power Immelman Minimum speed is 4. The plane will gain one hex. Split S All types No minimum speed. The added hex will only be applied if the planes starting speed is higher then 1 more than the number of levels the plane dives. For planes that received one more hex of movement, this extra hex must be plotted. So plotting would be for example -- 1 Split S – this would indicate that the plane would move one forward then perform the maneuver, or the plot could be --- Split S 1 -- this would be Split S maneuver then one hex. Remember if the special maneuver is left or right then the plane will move one hex straight if the one extra hex move is plotted after the maneuver. Battle of Britain Vic Formation for the British was much tighter than the Germans who used a "roving" wing man. So the planes in the Vic must be 3 hexes or closer to the leader! This will apply until September 1940. By that time a number of the British Fighter leaders realized how useless the tight formation was in dog fights and loosened up the formation. TAC levels We will use 10 levels not the 6 as in the rules. Remember when looking at Scenarios to multiply the indicated height by 1,5 this will give you the height while using 10 TAC levels. Hard Top and Hard bottom There are no restrictions on moving up or down CABs. However, make sure that High and Low altitudes are observe in records to aircraft Performance. Also if a pilot declares he is exiting the scenario and is being chased by an enemy plane the Dive/Climb factors must be used. A Player may dive out of combat by so declaring once he crosses a CAB, then the procedure in the rules will determine his diving speed vs. any pursuers. HE will then be out of the game! |
Yellow Admiral | 04 Nov 2017 9:40 p.m. PST |
Thanks for posting those rules. I keep coming back to this thread to look at the pictures of your BoB games. Do you have more? - Ix |
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