goragrad | 17 Sep 2017 4:13 a.m. PST |
By the way CC, my comment about the Cross of Iron incident as a diorama topic was made with the thought in mind that rape is seen as male on female violence. Back to the old saw about it being impossible for a man to be raped by a woman. Obviously not true. Such a diorama done in a manner consistent with the actual event would actually have some value as an educational device. And then there are the cultures in which male captives were raped by their male captors (something as least rumored to have occurred in Libya recently). Back to the original diorama, what I saw didn't glorify or promote rape – it merely was a snapshot taken prior to the presumed event. Essentially value neutral (although again as Basileus notes too antiseptic). 8 days is excessive. |
Oberlindes Sol LIC | 17 Sep 2017 9:24 a.m. PST |
The female did not appear human, IIRC it had elf ears. Is it possible to commit a crime against a fantasy alien? Your specism is showing. All of figures pictured were sentient humanoids. Rape is rape, even with pointed ears. What a bunch of prudes and (after the click) hypocrites. There was nothing in that scene that implied a sexual violation. One of the men had started stripping the prisoner; he's holding her shirt in his hands. One of his accomplices is opening his pants, and all the accomplices are armed. That's a sexual violation. |
haywire | 17 Sep 2017 9:32 a.m. PST |
This isn't the first time that picture was brought here to TMP, and I do not think the original poster was DHed for it at the time TMP link |
Sargonarhes | 17 Sep 2017 10:11 a.m. PST |
Ok, I just missed something here. Just searched and found the diorama, I'm a little shocked that some one made it. Then again knowing 40K player maybe I shouldn't be. This is like the whole naked woman chained to a pole issue again. Sure it offends most people, admittedly there are a weird few that get off on this stuff. Does that make it right? I'm sure there are those out there that will defend it, saying that it's only art. I'm not going to. I'm of the group that if the art offends just look away from it. |
Sargonarhes | 17 Sep 2017 11:20 a.m. PST |
And why is the fanfic story 'Love Can Bloom' suddenly coming back to mind over this? If you've never heard of it here. YouTube link link It cause a lot of nerd rage and other things, some of it turned pretty erotic, maybe even disturbing. |
Cacique Caribe | 17 Sep 2017 2:24 p.m. PST |
Goragrad: "Back to the old saw about it being impossible for a man to be raped by a woman. Obviously not true. Such a diorama done in a manner consistent with the actual event would actually have some value as an educational device." Seriously? "An educational device"? Is that what the first depiction of female rape was? In today's "Reality TV" society, where all misery is entertainment, it would probably end up listed under comedy. Perhaps even become a catchy meme. Dan |
Marc at work | 17 Sep 2017 2:48 p.m. PST |
Free Tango Seemed a standard aspect of war and miniature modelling. I like Armand's posts and will miss him for a week Marc |
Hafen von Schlockenberg | 17 Sep 2017 3:01 p.m. PST |
I'm not going to comment, except to say that goragrad's source on the "Cross of Iron" sequence was mistaken. And that the Cliff Sanderson Pirates series was in 54mm, and garnered a great deal of criticism when it was released. |
boy wundyr x | 17 Sep 2017 3:14 p.m. PST |
Too bad we can't pin this thread for the next time someone starts a thread wondering why there aren't more female gamers. Death and destruction give people pause already, who wants to tell their female loved ones their hobby includes showing off rape as long as it's not too rape-y? |
wrgmr1 | 17 Sep 2017 4:10 p.m. PST |
I like Armand and appreciate his posts however in this instance, as I said on the the thread this is disgusting and should be removed. He should have passed this one and not posted it. |
Elbow Mac | 17 Sep 2017 4:24 p.m. PST |
Some of the responses on here leave me speechless. When joining we are reminded to bear in mind that others may view the site including children. The general public already view wargamers as overweight, socially inept males with personal hygiene issues, do we really want to add this to the list? "a standard aspect of war and miniature modelling." – seriously? It's bad enough that the NSFW board even exists (I know of no other site which has one) I suppose we should be grateful that it has been changed from it's previous, puerile, title. |
Wyatt the Odd | 17 Sep 2017 5:45 p.m. PST |
As has been mentioned, that diorama has appeared here before – but in the Lounge. The fact that it has been deleted from CMON should be an indication that it is not an acceptable subject. As Bill has DH'd Tango for it, then it should be clear that it is not acceptable for TMP. That pretty much settles the debate. Tango takes the shotgun approach of quantity over quality, and this time he hit something he shouldn't have. Separately, the Sanderson minis are 54mm. There's actually some crossover between Pirates and ECW according to what I found. There is a mix of consensual and non-consensual "interactions" in the Pirates range and the Roman Slave Market range. The Sanderson figs are still available, even if they are woefully dated in terms of artistic skill. Just look for John Eden Studios. There's also a bacchanalia set of 54mm minis out there. Satyrs and willing females, from some manufacturer in the 80s. Wyatt |
Sargonarhes | 17 Sep 2017 6:11 p.m. PST |
I don't know if this would be the reason boy wundyr, there are anime hentai with the same kind of rape-y themes (is that even a word?) And as much as it surprised me there are female viewers of it, a fantasy of theirs maybe I did not ask why they were viewers of such things. Maybe I'm just more aware of it because of browsing 4chan. I'm fairly sure posting the diorama on 4chan's /tg/ traditional game board won't get you band, might be called heresy at the most. |
Charlie 12 | 17 Sep 2017 9:03 p.m. PST |
Seemed a standard aspect of war and miniature modelling. Hardly. I've been doing armor modeling and 54mm figure painting for some 40 years. And the subject matter portrayed in this diorama is NOT acceptable. Enter that in any contest and you'll be politely, but firmly, told to remove it. |
Rhysius Cambrensis | 18 Sep 2017 7:31 a.m. PST |
You are all so right because these things never happen in war, ever. There have never been any cases of disgraceful and disgusting behaviours by any soldiers or civilians in times of war. You are all so right. Warfare has always been conducted by white middle class gentlemen who know exactly how to behave and the proper etiquette that should always be applied to a lady soldier or civilian! What a bunch of ……. whatever. Modern art is particularly known for being provocative, challenging, and dealing with very challenging subjects and matter and yet it is still classed as art, and presented in museums. I don't understand why this is any different? This is a sad draconian reaction to a very modern art interpretation of perversions that DO happen in wartime regardless of the laws of engagement and accepted norms and values of the societies in which the participating soldiers hail from. You all obviously need to be reminded that our hobby is derived from the worst possible situation for any participant nations occurring in that a state of war now exists between yours and at least one other faction, internal or external. And yes, I know this is a Sci-Fi diorama of WH40K. Is this just an reaction to something you want to pretend doesn't exist/happen? |
Earl of the North | 18 Sep 2017 8:45 a.m. PST |
You be careful there, that horse is awfully high Lots of terrible things have been done by humans to other humans since we have existed…..does that mean we all want to see that on TMP. If so where do we draw the boundaries? Is rape of females okay to depict/allude to in miniatures? Does age matter, since children would often be amongst the victims? Does the sex of the victim matter? etc…. Not really something I care to encounter on a site where I come to look at and discuss toy soldiers. On Tango, as mentioned he uses a shotgun approach to posting and often doesn't seem to look closely at what he is actually posting. He is bound to occasionally post something that will get him a dawghousing. Look on the bright side (for those who enjoy his posts), that is eight days of stuff he will have built up for his return. |
Winston Smith | 18 Sep 2017 8:56 a.m. PST |
Is this just an reaction to something you want to pretend doesn't exist/happen? I find it a bit alarming that you think only are opposed to rape. |
foxweasel | 18 Sep 2017 9:30 a.m. PST |
That's not what he's saying, you're twisting his words like you did mine. |
Hafen von Schlockenberg | 18 Sep 2017 10:46 a.m. PST |
Well,however you want to read the question, the answer is still going to be no. |
foxweasel | 18 Sep 2017 1:13 p.m. PST |
Yes, in most cases the answer probably will be no. But at no point did he suggest that he believes only are opposed to rape. |
Barin1 | 18 Sep 2017 1:29 p.m. PST |
I knew the guy who've created this diorama. He is a very good painter – one of the best here. link be warned that his gallery still has this diorama, so in the end it is still on CMON. His WHFB army was skaven, don't remember if he was playing WH40K. When this diorama appeared on local forum in the end it was removed, and the reason were basically the same as here. I have no clue why he has created it – I think there's a market for a stuff like this. If you look at Brother Vinni figures, he is a very talented sculptor, who makes nice landsknechts, and Fallout miniatures… but he gets much more from his naked women stuff – bcs some of us are actively buying them. Coming back to the subject – if there're rules, they should be followed. |
Cacique Caribe | 18 Sep 2017 1:47 p.m. PST |
I wonder how many here clicked on the link provided. Dan |
Winston Smith | 18 Sep 2017 1:53 p.m. PST |
Yes, in most cases the answer probably will be no. But at no point did he suggest that he believes only are opposed to rape. Then why did he choose to phrase it that way? Do you speak for him? I can only assume that he meant what he typed. Why not let HIM defend himself? |
foxweasel | 18 Sep 2017 2:07 p.m. PST |
He didn't phrase it that way, it's how you've chosen to interpret it. Of course I don't speak for him, I don't have a clue who he is. He has an opinion, just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it wrong, it's just an opinion. Perhaps he's busy living in the real world to have the time to come on here and defend himself. |
Marc at work | 18 Sep 2017 2:56 p.m. PST |
I clicked – he paints good stuff and his scores are consistently high. |
deephorse | 18 Sep 2017 3:00 p.m. PST |
On Tango, as mentioned he uses a shotgun approach to posting and often doesn't seem to look closely at what he is actually posting. He is bound to occasionally post something that will get him a dawghousing. Ordinarily I would agree with you, but on this occasion I believe that Tango knew exactly what he was doing – witness the comment he added to accompany the photos. "Doesn't look good for her", or something to that effect. Those are not the words of someone that has no appreciation of what they are posting. |
Balin Shortstuff | 18 Sep 2017 7:25 p.m. PST |
Now it's my turn; Hafen von Schlockenberg, you're back! (yeah, I just noticed) |
PrivateSnafu | 18 Sep 2017 7:57 p.m. PST |
I appreciate that Bill runs TMP as a site that mostly preserves our 1st amendment rights. Bill can take a lot of flak for it and is not perfect at moderation. This discussion reflects the current state of right/left thinking or black/white morality. Being a centrist is a lonely watch. The grey is lost on too many folks. It reminds me of Next Generation Season 1 Episode 8 (Justice) where Picard must violate the Prime Directive to save Wesley Crusher. Essentially laws with out degrees of punishment can be unjust. In this inverse case (no punishment) justice dictates that Tango gets a timeout. To preserve the integrity of the members and our online hangout, Bill did what was necessary. As in life there are circumstances where your Constitutional Rights are not absolute. No one is denied seeing the image in the end. |
Hafen von Schlockenberg | 18 Sep 2017 10:36 p.m. PST |
Now it's my turn; Jeez,Balin,you have a long memory! : ) But thanks for noticing. |
Hafen von Schlockenberg | 18 Sep 2017 10:44 p.m. PST |
I see that,true to form, a "Get X Out of the Dawghouse" thread gets Y into the Dawghouse. |
Volleyfire | 19 Sep 2017 2:45 a.m. PST |
I'm not comparing this painter directly with Rubens, but there is a painting in the National Gallery by Rubens entitled 'The Rape of the Sabine Women' which depicts such an event after the Sabines were defeated by Rome. link Given that this was painted centuries ago for public display, and accepting that attitudes have altered somewhat during that period, isn't this diorama merely a modern update on the theme? Whilst it does seem a strange choice for a diorama, and I would think there should be perhaps some kind of warning attached for younger viewers, given that we hear in the media about the high levels of sexting going on between children of school ages down into single figures, and the amount of images they can access on the internet or TV these days, are we being a bit OTT in our reaction to this? Isn't this the sort of thing where, with some parental guidance, it can be used as an example to explain to the younger generation about what is acceptable in society, whether it be peacetime or wartime? |
foxweasel | 19 Sep 2017 4:29 a.m. PST |
Volleyfire. That was a very reasoned post Simon, |
Cacique Caribe | 19 Sep 2017 8:49 a.m. PST |
If you looked at the picture on the thread using a small screen like I did, you'd never see any of the details everyone else seems to have seen (or that they apparently already knew about the picture). And the "It's not gonna go well for her" comment could mean many things that don't involve rape, like her imminent capture. Was Tango1 even asked what he meant by his comment? Or if he saw all those same details? Or was he presumed to have had intent? Lack of intent has exempted some people from charges before.*. He's never done anything like that before, which means that this is a rare situation that should have prompted a couple of those basic questions. In other words, his past behavior should be working in his favor instead of being used as an excuse to have him crucified (just for posting more threads than you would like). Dan * A few years back I posted a link to what I thought was a simple image of John Carter of Mars. But when other people clicked on it, you ended up seeing a truly gross and obscene image instead. And I mean stomach-turning obscene! Someone told me what happened to the link and I immediately asked Bill to pull it. I didn't have to serve time for the mistake, that I recall. |
Winston Smith | 19 Sep 2017 8:55 a.m. PST |
The Rape of the Sabine Women was not about a group of hastati getting down and dirty after a battle. It was more along the lines of Mars Needs Women, but substitute Rome for Mars. The Romans celebrated this incident, but then the Romans were pretty perverted. I have never considered Rubens "great art", just the 17th century equivalent of Esquire's Vargas, but with flabbier women. Pinups for the wealthy. I'm still trying to get my head around why and how Rubens justifies that perverted 40K diorama. It hangs in some gallery? So what? |
Winston Smith | 19 Sep 2017 9:02 a.m. PST |
Oh come on Dan. "It's not going to go well for her" has a 95% likelihood of meaning she is going to get serially raped. There are those who have said she looks angry, not scared. There are those who say she is glancing at a sword half buried in the mud. There are those who say she is an Eldar Warrior, a super fast Ninja. There are those who say that the IG are doomed. Right. You really have to be totally immersed in Warhammer 40K lore, ca 2010, to not see anything other than a gang bang, likely with her death at the end. If she didn't have pointy ears, that would be the case. |
Cacique Caribe | 19 Sep 2017 9:06 a.m. PST |
Like I said. That's not how I saw the scene on my screen, with my eyes. I didn't click on the link he provided, though. I just glanced at the picture posted directly on the thread. For example, I didn't even see that the guy was holding a piece of her armor. I didn't zoom in on that. So, instead of the discussion becoming one about artistic precedents in galleries and such, which leads nowhere, this should be about Tango1's own past record. It's gotta count for something, at least the benefit of some questions. It is completely out of character. Bill's comment on this thread only mentions that he saw the art as inappropriate and that is all he went by. It needed to be pulled. But there's no mention of Bill reaching out to Tango1 for any sort of explanation before sending him to the DH. And it looks like there are other people here who didn't even see the thread in question but are being very quick to assume things about what details Tango1 saw and about his intentions. Dan |
foxweasel | 19 Sep 2017 9:17 a.m. PST |
I give up, I think I'll join the hating masses. I demand an end to the possible use of sexual violence against imaginary creatures in 40000 years time. I demand an end to the depiction of all oppression of fantasy species. |
Wulfgar | 19 Sep 2017 11:46 a.m. PST |
Oh, the horror! Tango is locked in the virtual dawghouse. Will he survive to post again? I like Tango. Great guy. He's done me several favors with his posts, and I'm grateful. This time he goofed and posted something that is offensive to a lot of people. My own personal test is to ask myself what my daughter might think. Since my daughter has experienced rape, I suspect she might be offended. Somehow, Tango will survive and post again. He's a big guy, and probably isn't seeking counseling for the trauma. |
Volleyfire | 19 Sep 2017 3:09 p.m. PST |
It hangs in some gallery? So what? Not just some gallery Mr Smith and I reckon you know its standing amongst galleries here in the UK. I think the last, rather flippant line of your post is deliberately aimed at provoking the sort of reaction which puts posters in the DH so I will pass thank you very much.All I will say is that the title of Rubens painting and the general subject matter was what I was referring to, but I surmise that you guessed that. What your opinion is of Rubens is just your opinion which you are of course entitled to. |
Winston Smith | 19 Sep 2017 5:53 p.m. PST |
There is a lot of trash hanging in a lot of prestigious galleries. |
Cacique Caribe | 19 Sep 2017 7:02 p.m. PST |
Just wondering … Do museum these days come with "NSFW" or similar content warnings? I haven't been able to go to one in a couple of years. Dan PS. My favorite sculpture in the Ferré Museum of Fine Ats in Ponce PR was that of a half naked woman holding up a pair of pliers with a molar in it. It took a couple of years to notice the pliers and the molar though. Lots of very vivid and candid art there, which I might not be able to share here.
Photo blocked by adult filter: "picture" |
Editor in Chief Bill | 19 Sep 2017 8:34 p.m. PST |
There is a valid academic argument to be made around whether miniatures are art, and what subjects are to be tolerated for the sake of "art." Certainly, many movies have depictions of rape, and we consider that valid for the sake of drama. However, I don't think this was one of those cases where some "greater good" was being accomplished through this depiction of rape. |
Winston Smith | 19 Sep 2017 8:43 p.m. PST |
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Earl of the North | 20 Sep 2017 2:07 a.m. PST |
Its all beside the point anyway isn't it, the rights and the wrongs of the diorama. Tango didn't create it he simply posted a picture and link (I assume) with probably very little explanation of why he posted it or what he was expecting to come of it. It would be interesting to hear from its creator what he was trying to achieve with it or whether it was simply a commission for some other unnamed person. I think this is the problem with Tango's style of posting, if its just a cool picture then fine, but if you choose to post this to TMP you should have a good reason and explain your reasoning in your first post on the topic….otherwise you have just posted troubling subject matter with absolutely no explanation. Maybe he would have escaped a dawghousing if he had posted the picture and posted his thoughts that while it is a sickening and trying subject that he feels that it needs to be seen and discussed….maybe he would have still been dawghoused, but I (and perhaps others) would have felt better about supporting a call for amnesty if it was a genuine attempt at discussing a troubling subject rather than his usual posting style. Also for the record I have often supported Tango's right to post as he wishes (within the rules) and will support those who I feel have been wrongly dawghoused. I just feel there should not be an automatic belief that liking and knowing the person in question means I have to support an amnesty when he/she breaks the rules. I was auto dawghoused along with many others during Bill's holiday, annoying yes, but hardly draconian punishment. |
Earl of the North | 20 Sep 2017 5:00 a.m. PST |
To clarify, the argument whether the diorama should have been made is beside the point, as (for me at least) its the forum Tango chose to re-post this in that is the problem. Posting this in a forum where the discussion about the subject could be discussed seems to be a better choice than TMP's NSFW board…..which isn't known for its deep moral discussions. |
legatushedlius | 20 Sep 2017 5:15 a.m. PST |
It's a temporary suspension from a group about toy soldiers. He hasn't been fined ten thousand dollars or imprisoned. Time will soon be over and he can resume. |
foxweasel | 20 Sep 2017 5:29 a.m. PST |
People are going to argue if they don't agree with something, it's not pointless. If we can't have different opinions about things it's a very sad state of affairs. |
Cacique Caribe | 20 Sep 2017 8:25 a.m. PST |
I'm confused now. What part of Foxweasel's joke was that offensive? "NAME CALLING: 'Yellowbellys should stick together. I don't think it'll sway the Tango lynch mob though.'" TMP link I'm told not to be thin-skinned about being singled out and called "TMP's Whipping Boy" but yet someone got offended by THAT??? link Dan PS. And if it's about the lynch mob part, a couple of people on this thread already said lynch mob-like that it was time for Tango1 to pay "for his mistakes". |
Wulfgar | 20 Sep 2017 9:40 a.m. PST |
Perhaps it was the "Yellowbellys (sic) should stick together," part, since the offense is clearly labeled as "name-calling." Seems a lot worse than making an analogy about an old children's story, which wasn't intended as it was received. Have you read the story? It might help to understand the comment, which was actually well-intended, I think. It might be best to save our outrage for something more meaningful, such as rape. Tango isn't dead. |
Cacique Caribe | 20 Sep 2017 9:57 a.m. PST |
Wulfgar, What if the two people in that particular exchange (Volleyfire and Foxweasel) were both "Yellowbellies" from Lincolnshire? link Dan |