"Evidence of Elephant species used by Hannibal?" Topic

It has become a cliche to assume that the elephants that Hannibal took in his invasion of Italy were the now extinct Atlas Elephants, instead Indian Elephants. But which is the evidence that supports this idea? If my memory doesn't fail me neither Polybius or Livy commented anything about the elephants used by Hannibal being different of those used by Hellenistic kingdoms -Indian elephants-. I am not aware that exists archaeological evidence that confirms either hypothesis, i.e. African Atlas instead Indian Elephants.

So, besides the proximity of Carthage to the Atlas Mountains, do anyone know other evidence that supports the idea that Carthaginians used Atlas Elephants instead Indian Elephants breeds?

The Ptolmaic forces at Raphia used the smaller African breed. It is well documented that they could not stand up to the larger Indian Elephants on the Seleucid side.
You would assume there would be a good trade in trained Elephants between the Ptolmaic, Carthaginian and Numidian states.

Unfortunately I can not offer firm evidence, but why is it I remember reading something about Hannibal having one Indian elephant with the other elephants, and a suggestion that this was the one that survived longer…. ?

Probably does not help, but, it would point to the distinction of breeds used…. if I could actually point out where I read this!

(shrugs shoulders)

Chalfant

Hmmmm… how about this….
link

Surus….
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surus

Something at least to pursue?

Chalfant

Never considered Indian elephants. Would not the proximity of the lower African Bush elephants be more likely than Indian.
My opinion is the Atlas breed.

How would Carthage get hold of Indian Elephants? They would have to come a hell of a long way through plenty of nations who would no doubt happily confiscate a herd Indian war elephants that they came across.

There are pictures on coins of Carthaginian and Numidian Elephants.
They don't look like Indian elephants – wrong back shape.

I'm with Dexter – the Carthaginian coins with elephants I've seen pictures of are clearly African and not Indian. A quick Google of "Carthaginian elephant coin" should find plenty.

hiya

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I remember reading something about Hannibal having one Indian elephant with the other elephants, and a suggestion that this was the one that survived longer…. ?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It's name was 'the Syrian'

DB

Absence of evidence is not evidence of elephants…or something.

The coins do point towards the African variety.

"The Ptolmaic forces at Raphia used the smaller African breed"

it's recently been suggested that the Ptolemaics had no access to the smaller African breed; instead, they may have used juvenile bush elephants imported from East Africa. Juveniles bush elephants (unlike adults) can be trained.

On Hannibal's elephants I don't think anyone is suggesting that they used lots of Indians, rather that Hannibal's personal mount was an Indian (from, or via, Syria). This seems plausible to me from the name and because this one elephant survived the Alps and winter that killed all the others, possibly because it was larger or hardier than its African peers.