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"Battle honors of the Guard Chasseurs à Cheval?" Topic


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Cuirassier15 Aug 2017 7:39 a.m. PST

Was the Guard Chasseurs à Cheval awarded with all these battle honors (during the Napoleonic Era)?

picture

picture

The new Regiment of Chasseurs à Cheval of the French Imperial Guard inherited the battle honors of the original Regiment of Chasseurs à Cheval of the French Imperial Guard (from the First French Empire – Napoleonic Era).

This was the first flag of the new regiment (flag model 1854). It was painted.

The regiment was formed with many veterans of the Crimean War, from the 4th Chasseurs d'Afrique and other regiments of Chasseurs d'Afrique and from the 1st and 4th French Hussars. Many of these cavalrymen charged with great success at the battles of Balaclava, Tchernaya and Kanghill (during the Crimean War). The regiment had 1.272 cavalrymen at the end of 1856.

Guard Chasseurs à Cheval at the Camp of Châlons in 1857… RIGHT-CLICK ON THE IMAGE, COPY AND PASTE THE URL/ADDRESS OF THE PHOTO, THEN CLICK ON THE IMAGE TO ENLARGE IT.

picture

von Winterfeldt15 Aug 2017 9:10 a.m. PST

couldn't find any battle honours of this unit during the Napoleonic time

Le Breton15 Aug 2017 11:20 a.m. PST

All the French guards' drapeaux & étendards bore the exact same list of battles and cities, without regard to their actual service
I do not think that these were considered "battle honors" in the modern sense.
I think it meant that French guards were in attendence at these important events.

MARENGO.   ULM.
AUSTERLITZ. JENA.
EYLAU. ESSLING.
WAGRAM. SMOLENSK.
MOSKOWA.
VIENNA. BERLIN.
MADRID. MOSCOU.

See:
Drapeaux et étendards de la Révolution et de l'Empire
Pierre Charrié
Paris : Copernic, 1982
pages 176-178

Brechtel198 Supporting Member of TMP15 Aug 2017 5:54 p.m. PST

The correct term for the Imperial Guard is 'Guard', not 'guards.' The British and Russians had guards, as did the Prussians, but the French had an Imperial Guard, no 's'.

The Chasseurs a Cheval and Grenadiers a Cheval were engaged at Marengo, Austerlitz, and Eylau; The Guard infantry and artillery fought at Essling and Wagram, as examples. The Guard infantry, artillery, and cavalry were engaged at Hanau.

So, for all intents and purposes, these were battle honors that were awarded. Sometimes just being present was an honor, even if they were not engaged.

Le Breton15 Aug 2017 10:19 p.m. PST

"The correct term for the Imperial Guard is 'Guard', not 'guards.' "
Says Who? You?

And if we are being uselessly pedantic, and you want to write names in French, you might learn how to spell them correctly :
chasseurs à cheval
grenadiers à cheval

In the French language, "a" is the present tense third singular person of the verb "avoir" = "to have". If you see "a eu", it is the perfect tense.

If you want a preposition, then it is "à".

See : link
It is a French dictionary – a place where the spelling and meaning of words in French can be found.

======================

Are you really saying that the chasseurs à cheval deserve a battle honor for standing around watching tens of thousands of French soldiers die in battles such as Ulm, Jena, Essling, Smolensk and La Moskowa? Really?

Actually, were they even there to watch at Ulm and Essling? Or did they get credit for merely intending to watch those battles ?

Or maybe, just maybe, Napoléon did not intend that these inscriptions were really battle honors, and that is why the were they same for every unit of the French guards?

von Winterfeldt15 Aug 2017 11:00 p.m. PST

"All the French guards' drapeaux & étendards bore the exact same list of battles and cities, without regard to their actual service
I do not think that these were considered "battle honors" in the modern sense.
I think it meant that French guards were in attendence at these important events."

While I agree that some of the Guards' battle honours are purely to observe important events – linked closely to the fate of Napoléon – I cannot see a detailed description for the CàC of the guard – compared to the grenadiers à pied, where for example a spelling mistake had occured

Maringo – instead of Marengo

4th Cuirassier16 Aug 2017 3:40 a.m. PST

"The correct term for the Imperial Guard is 'Guard', not 'guards.' "
Says Who? You?

Brechtel is correct. "La Garde" is a singular noun meaning "the Guard" and all its units were the something-or-other of the Guard. There were no Chasseur Guards, there were only Chasseurs of the Guard.

The British referred to their own guards as guards, and Wellington (eg) applied this to the French as well, referring to the imperial guards in the Waterloo Despatch.

"à" and most other accented characters do not feature on most keyboards. If I need a cedilla I have to Google it and then copy and paste it in. When the meaning's clear from the context what's the point? I don't understand the snark here.

On the substance of the question, I think it is quite instructive that all Guard colours had the same battle honours. What that suggests is that the Guard was not thought of as a group of autonomous units that collectively belonged to the Guard. Instead the Guard itself, in the large, was the unit. The constituent units were sub-formations analogous to the battalions of a regiment. If the regiment's second battalion wins a battle honour, every battalion of that regiment puts it on its colours, whichever battalion earned it, because the regiment was there.

If so, that is a genuinely novel way of thinking about the Guard that, in 40 years of doing so (to the month almost), has never occurred to me before. The Guard was a hive mind, like the children in Village of the Damned.

Really interesting what you can infer from a flag.

Le Breton16 Aug 2017 3:56 a.m. PST

Charrié says it was identical.
"Maringo" seems to have been an accepted alternative spellling at that time.
And while checking that, I notice I missed a line.
So let's try that again :


MARINGO, ULM,
AUSTERLITZ, JÉNA,
EYLAU, ESSLING,
FRIEDLAND, ECKMÙHL,
WAGRAM, SMOLENSK,
MOSKOWA,
VIENNA, BERLIN,
MADRID, MOSCOU,

Comma's not periods.
Tried harder to get the spacing to show
Full list of battles
"Maringo"
É in JENA
Ù in ECKMÙHL (I can't see it in the photos I can find of the drapeau of the 1er grenadiers à pied, but a transcription published in La Sabretache in 1921 has it thus, based on close examination a century ago)

picture

Le Breton16 Aug 2017 4:20 a.m. PST

4th Curaissier,

"guards, and Wellington (eg) applied this to the French as well"
Wellington was writing in English. I was trying to do the same. I think French guards is perfectly acceptable English. Google it …. it is quite a common expression in published books. The concept of "la garde Impériale" exists in French. To drag the form into English drags some of the concept with it. I would prefer to join Welllington in not adopting a French effort at myth-making for their guards. I would not say that this was the only way to write it, but I am rather sure that it is not "incorrect" to fail to adopt a syntax which tends to demonstrate some special quality of excellence or uniqueness when I do not believe that such existed, other than as an attempt to protect the regime and the ego or reputation of its leader.

"accented characters do not feature on most keyboards"
Actually it is not the keyboard – it is the character map.
link
You can also make hot key pre-sets, although many systems come with them.
For example, on OS X Macs and most Linux distros:
--- press ALT/OPTION + "E" key at the same time : you see the accent and a highlighted space
--- lift and press "E" again, you get é
--- lift and press SHIFT + "E", you get É
If you really needed to copy/paste or have a special keyboard, it would making writing more than one language on the same machine almost impossible.

"What that suggests is that the Guard was not thought of as a group of autonomous units that collectively belonged to the Guard"
Or it was just Napoléon doing propaganda. The French guards rarely fought. Giving them all a huge list of battle honors which line regiments had to actually fight to receive strikes me as more or less false advertising.

"I don't understand the snark here."
Mine was counter-snark. I plead self-defense.

von Winterfeldt16 Aug 2017 4:29 a.m. PST

@Le Breton

Thanks, I must re read Charrié on that – some of those names are clearly propaganda – Berlin – for example – was there a battle about Berlin?

Ulm, a joke, those units who deserved most would have been those of the excellent Dupont and his divisions, but the Guard?

It should rather indicate that foreign capital cities were conquered by the French, so it would be perfect to add those names to the line units as well.

Brechtel198 Supporting Member of TMP16 Aug 2017 4:44 a.m. PST

The Garde Imperiale units that seldom fought were the Old Guard infantry units.

The Guard cavalry and artillery usually were engaged and the Young Guard was engaged quite often.

There was no battle of Ulm. There was the Ulm campaign and the Ulm capitulation, but no battle of Ulm. There were actions around Ulm, such as the Battle of Haslach where Dupont got himself into trouble for no good reason, and there were actions around the trains of both armies, and Ferdinand, the Austrian commander, ran away leaving Mack to hold the bag for the capitulation, but there was no battle of Ulm.

4th Cuirassier16 Aug 2017 5:23 a.m. PST

@ Le Breton

Sure, but why would I bother to set up a hot key to type characters like é when it's bleedin' obvious what I mean anyway?

The fact is that the corps was called the Guard. That Wellington and others called them guards doesn't make them guards. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, nobody in the Guard had the rank of 'guard'. In the British army you had Guardsman Brown, but in the French, he'd be Grenadier Brun.

I hear you on myth-making, but there are myths and there are myths, are there not? The French putting Fuentes d'Oñoro on the Arc de Triomphe as a victory (when it was a defeat) is myth-making. Calling the Guard the Guard accurately reflects what they were actually and properly called.

The Prussian unit was the Garderegiment zu Fuß which translates as Foot Guard regiment. So individually they would be guards, especially as the lights were the Garde-Jäger-Bataillon. In each case I would say, hazily remembering German language lessons, that Garde is an adjective or perhaps an adjectival noun, like "taxi" in "taxi-driver". In that case the plural would be "taxi-drivers" not "drivers of taxi" (which would be grammatically correct English, but a bit eccentric), and thus there are multiple guards in the Prussian instance but only one Guard in the French.

As I say, I think the more interesting point than the philology here is the inferential oneness of the French Guard…

Marc at work16 Aug 2017 6:01 a.m. PST

Where are the chill pills…

Brechtel198 Supporting Member of TMP16 Aug 2017 6:44 a.m. PST

I think the more interesting point than the philology here is the inferential oneness of the French Guard…

That is the impression given not only by authors on the Guard itself but by Napoleon's treatment and organization of the Guard itself.

Well said.

Le Breton16 Aug 2017 6:54 a.m. PST

French "young" guards did not get the drapeaux/étendards with the lists of battles.

"There was no battle of Ulm" – mostly true, but the French guards got a so-called "battle honor" for it. I don't think they even earned an "attendence honor".

"The Guard cavalry and artillery usually were engaged "
I suppose that "usually" means something different for French guards compared to the line.
Probably it was similar to the words "pay", "rank" and "rations".

Actually, the chasseurs à cheval in the French guards fought nearly as often as the line. But of the 11 battles for which they received honors, they were only substatively engaged in five of them, less than half.

battles with more than 3 officer casualties

grenadiers à cheval de la garde : 6 battles : Austerlitz, Eylau, Leipzig, Montmirail, Craonne, Waterloo
1er carabiniers à cheval : 8 battles : Austerlitz, Friedland, Ratisbonne, Wagram, Borodino, Leipsig, Hanau, Waterloo
2e carabiniers à cheval : 9 battles : Austerlitz, Friedland, Ratisbonne, Essling, Wagram, Vinkovo, Leipsig, Hanau, Waterloo
1er cuirassiers : 10 battles : Austerlitz, Hoff, Eylau, Essling, Borodino, Vinkovo, Leipsig, Hanau, Paris, Waterloo
2e cuirassiers : 8 battles : Friedland, Essling, Wagram, Borodino, Dresden, Leipzig, Paris, Waterloo

dragons de la garde : 3 battles : Hanau, Craonne, Waterloo
(also ambushed on patrol near Moscow)
1er dragons : 8 battles : Wertingen, Austerlitz, Jena, Hoff, Eylau, Heilsberg, Talavera, Chiclana,
2e dragons : 8 battles : Albeck, Jena, Elyau, Heilsberg, Ciudad-Rodrigo, Leipzig, Saint-Dizier, Waterloo
3e dragons : 3 battles : Austerlitz, Eylau, Friedland
4e dragons : 9 battles : Dierstein, Hoff, Eylau, Heilsberg, Friedland, Albuhera, Leipzig, Fere-Champenoise, Ligny

chasseurs à cheval de la garde : 7 battles : Austerlitz, Eylau, Wagram, Maloyaroslavets, Leipsig, Craonne, Waterloo
(also ambushed during the Madrid insurrection and at Benavente)
1er chasseurs à cheval : 8 battles : Auerstadt, Nasielsk, Danube crossing, Wagram, Borodino, Freybourg, Leipzig, Waterloo
2e chasseurs à cheval : 8 battles : Auerstadt, Abensberg, Neumarck, Raab, Wagram, Smolensk, Borodino, Leipsig
1er hussards : 4 battles : Eylau, Sabugal, Leipsig, Namur
2e hussards : 7 battles : Austerlitz, Halle, Ronda, Albuhera, Leipzig, Montreau, Belfort

artillerie à pied de la garde : 7 battles : Wagram, Borodino, Krasnoë, Lutzen, Leipzig, Paris, Waterloo
(also ambushed by Cossacks near Vilna)
1er régiment d'artillerie à pied : 11 battles : Wagram, Apriles, Polotsk, Smolensk, Vilna, Lutzen, Bautzen, Vittoria, Dresden, Leipzig, Paris
2e régiment d'artillerie à pied : 9 battles : Gaëte, Girone, Borodino, Malyaroslavets, Berezina, Vilna, Lutzen, Bautzen, Leipzig
3e régiment d'artillerie à pied : 5 battles : Saragosse, Girone, Tarragone, Leipzig, Paris
4e régiment d'artillerie à pied : 4 battles : Girone, Würschen, Leipsig, Paris

artillerie à cheval de la garde : 1 battle : Wagram
1er régiment d'artillerie à cheval : 3 battles : Wagram, Borodino, Leipzig
2e régiment d'artillerie à cheval : 3 battles : Borodino, Dresden, Leipzig
3e régiment d'artillerie à cheval : 4 battles : Wagram, Sabugal, Smolensk, Borodino
4e régiment d'artillerie à cheval : 4 battles : Borodino, Maloyaroslavets, Berezina, Katzbach

Brechtel198 Supporting Member of TMP16 Aug 2017 6:55 a.m. PST

Regarding the infantry of the Old Guard, it should be remembered that they were veterans when they became members of the Guard and that they had earned that appointment to the Imperial Guard through excellent service and conduct.

'At Tilsit in a review for the sovereigns, Tsar Alexaner, while viewing the Old Guard pass in review, asked Marshal Ney hwere were the men who had given the Guardsmen such terrible scars. Ney's reply was blunt and succinct: 'Sire, they are all dead.'

Brechtel198 Supporting Member of TMP16 Aug 2017 6:58 a.m. PST

There were not 4 regiments of Guard artillerie a pied or artillery a cheval.

And it should be noted that the Guard artillerie a pied was not formed until 1808.

The French line artillery did not serve as regiments in the field, but by company. The artillery regiment was an administrative unit, not a combat unit.

For example, In 1812 the 3d Regiment of Artillerie a Pied had nine companies in Spain, divided between three armies; three companies at Toulouse, two at Figueras, one at Madrid, one at Barcelona, one at Leon, one at La Pointe de Grave, one at the Isle de Re, one at Flushing, one at Antwerp, and one at Breda.

The French foot artillery began with eight regiments of twenty companies each, later expanded to nine regiments of 27 or 28 companies.

The French horse artillery arm was composed of six regiments of up to eight companies with a depot company being added to each regiment in 1807.

Le Breton16 Aug 2017 7:29 a.m. PST

4th Curassier,

I did preface my remarks with "if we are being uselessly pedantic". As long as we can understand what is intended when we write, I think that is good enough.

I think it is not polite to be pompously told what is "incorrect" when my usage accords with that of Wellington and many other native English speakers. Bothering to make a point of this is rather pedantic. If I corrected similar mistakes about Russian units, you would think I was daft.

By the way, a literal translation of Russian unit names shows that all of the name up to the unit type is adjectival.
Лейбъ-Гвардіи Преображенскій полкъ (modern Russian Лейб-гвардии Преображенский полк) would be something like Life-Guarding Transfiguration-ish regiment (the unit is named for a village called "Transfiguration").

About "the inferential oneness of the French Guard", that's what I think is an element of propaganda – and I chose not to play along.

Le Breton16 Aug 2017 7:37 a.m. PST

"Old Guard, it should be remembered that they were veterans when they became members of the Guard and that they had earned that appointment to the Imperial Guard through excellent service and conduct."
Not Unique to the French
Exactly true of Russian guards aslo.
recruits ---> line units, center subunits ---> line units, grenadier subunits ---> grenadier units ---> guards units

"There were not 4 regiments of Guard artillerie a[sic] pied or artillery a[sic] cheval."
Who Said There Were?
The guards units are noted as "de la garde". The others are line units for comaprison. I picked the first comparable line units by number to contrast with the guards units.

"The French line artillery did not serve as regiments in the field, but by company. The artillery regiment was an administrative unit, not a combat unit."
That's the Point
The line artillery served all over the place in separate ocmpanies and still they managed to have much more action per regiment than the guards artillery, which was mostly held in reserve and hardly ever (especially the artillerie à cheval de la garde) got heavily engaged. This is a counter-point (with data) to your assertion (without data) that the French guards "artillery usually were engaged". Actual data argues against your un-supported assertion or personal opinion.

"the Guard artillerie a[sic] pied was not formed until 1808"
Yes, but ….
And yet you say that they fairly won "battle honors" for MARINGO, ULM, AUSTERLITZ, JÉNA, EYLAU, ESSLING, FRIEDLAND, VIENNA, BERLIN and MADRID ?

von Winterfeldt16 Aug 2017 8:37 a.m. PST

""Old Guard, it should be remembered that they were veterans when they became members of the Guard and that they had earned that appointment to the Imperial Guard through excellent service and conduct."

Hm, what was the service record of Mauduit?
what is a veteran, one year of campaigning?

Le Breton16 Aug 2017 11:21 a.m. PST

Maudit might be looked at as a single case.
So I looked a little more at the 1810-1813 matricules of the 1er grenadiers à pied, from the beginning of 1810.
I checked the first 15 entries:
--- all 15 met the height requirement
--- 12 were young soldiers, age 21-23 with typically prior serivce in Spain in 1808 and Germany in 1809 with the fusilier-grenadiers, and without any further distinctions
--- 3 were aged 30-35 with long combat experience and wounds from service with the 33rd Line, 2 of these were corporals who retrograded to grenadier
--- 1/3 of the young soldiers and 2/3 of the veterans became prisoners in Russia
--- 1 of the young soldiers died in 1811, not due to combat
--- 1 of the young soldiers deserted just prior to the departure for Russia
--- 2 of the young soldiers were promoted to caporal-fourier (presumably they were among the bourgeois who typically entered the fusiliers-grenadier, and who could read, write and figure rather well)
--- these matricules cover 1810 through september 1813 – during that time none of the 15 had a record of a combat casualty
--- none of the young soliders had a record of being wounded in their service in Spain and Germany, although the fusiliers-grenadiers were engaged (only) at Essling (11 officer casulaties)
--- see : link

=========================

François Rouvier
--- born 1787, height 175 cm, entered fusiliers-grenadiers 1807, campagnes 1807 Prussia 1808 Spain 1809 Germany, entered 1st battalion 1810

Francois Froté
--- born 1786, height 176 cm, entered fusiliers-grenadiers 1808, campaigns 1808 Spain 1809 Germany, entered 1st battalion 1810, prisoner in Russia

Nicolas Catin
--- height 176 cm, entered fusiliers-grenadiers 1808, campaigns 1808 Spain 1809 Germany, entered 1st battalion 1810, prisoner in Russia

Edme Cassin
--- born 1789, height 181 cm, entered fusiliers-grenadiers 1808, campaigns 1808 Spain 1809 Germany, entered 1st battalion 1810, promoted fourier in 1812

François Fossati
--- born 1787, entered fusiliers-grenadiers 1807, campagnes 1808 Spain 1809 Germany, entered 2nd battalion 1810

Constant Delhay
--- born 1787, height 177 cm, entered fusiliers-grenadiers 1808, campaigns 1808 Spain 1809 Germany, entered 1st battalion 1810

Joseph Mancardi
--- born 1787, height 180 cm, entered fusiliers-grenadiers 1806, campaigns 1807 Prussia 1808 Spain 1809 Germany, entered 2nd battalion 1810, promoted fourier in 1813

Pierre Gosselin
--- born 1788, height 177 cm, entered fusiliers-grenadiers 1808, campaigns 1808 Spain 1809 Germany, entered 2nd battalion 1810, deserted in early 1812

Nicolas Kitchen
--- born 1787, height 175 cm, entered fusiliers-grenadiers 1807, campaigns 1808 Spain 1809 Germany, entered 2nd battalion 1810

Jean-Pierre Barthelemi
--- born 1787, height 176 cm, entered fusiliers-grenadiers 1807, campaigns 1808 Spain 1809 Germany, entered 2nd battalion 1810, died in 1811

Édouard-Louis-Joseph Cilleux
--- born 1787, height 176 cm, entered fusiliers-grenadiers 1808, campaigns 1808 Spain 1809 Germany, entered 2nd battalion 1810, prisoner in Russia

Louis Lacroix
--- born 1787, height 173 cm, entered fusiliers-grenadiers 1808, campaigns 1808 Spain 1809 Germany, entered 2nd battalion 1810, prisoner in Russia

Guillaume Bodelot
--- born 1781, height 179 cm, entered 33rd Line 1800, promoted corporal, campaigns 1800 Germany 1805/1806/1807/1809 Grande Armée, wounded at Ratisbonne, entered 1st battalion as a grenadier 1809

George Lucas
--- born 1775, height 177 cm, entered service 8th batallion of "féderés"1793, campaigns Vendée, Ans V-VIII Armée d'Italie, passed to the 33rd Line, 1805/1806/1807/1809 Grande Armée, wounded Austerlitz, Jena and Eylau, entered 1st battalion 1809, prisoner in Russia

Nicolas Millet
--- born 1778, height 174 cm, entered 33rd Line 1800, promoted corporal, campaigns 1800/1801/1805 Côtes d'Ocean 1806/1807/1809 Grande Armée, wounded at Eylau, entered 1st battalion as a grenadier 1809, prisoner in Russia

von Winterfeldt16 Aug 2017 1:00 p.m. PST

@ Le Breton

Thanks for all your effort, also for the information about the colours attached to the eagle.

Brechtel198 Supporting Member of TMP16 Aug 2017 2:41 p.m. PST

When the Guard foot artillery regiment was ordered formed on 12 April 1808, the Guard artillery was both reorganized and increased.

The regiment of Artillery a Cheval was reduced from six companies to four (three squadrons to two), an artillery staff was authorized, six companies of foot artillery were organized, two train battalions, a company of pontonniers and an artillery parc of 60 pieces.

Napoleon intended that the Guard artillery would be the Grande Armee's artillery reserve. Antoine Drouot of the 3d Regiment de Artillerie a Pied was nominated to be the regimental commander by General Lariboisiere.

Boulart, then in the Guard horse artillery, was transferred to the new foot artillery regiment as were other officers from the Guard horse artillery that were now surplus to the horse artillery regiment.

That being the case, the new foot artillery regiment undoubtedly had the battle honors as they had been awarded to the Guard artillery and some of the officers and men of the new Guard artillery regiment were former Guard horse artillerymen.

The Guard artillery served well at Essling, Wagram, Lutzen, and Hanau, as well as at Ligny and Waterloo and other battles, and as an army artillery reserve they saw combat more often than not.

Coignet mentions the heavy casualties suffered by the Guard artillery in 1809 and that they were replaced on the field by Old Guard infantry, who were also killed and wounded.

So, the idea that the Guard artillery was not committed into heavy combat is wrong. And it should be noted what their mission was.

Further, there were also Young Guard artillery companies, both horse and foot.

'In most battles the Guard artillery is the deciding factor, since, having it always at hand, I can take it wherever it is needed.'-Napoleon, 2 June 1813.

'The Guard artillery was highly maneuverable, and its gunnery generally excellent, thanks to the annual shooting competitions at La Fere.'

Brechtel198 Supporting Member of TMP17 Aug 2017 5:39 a.m. PST

An interesting question arose when the new foot artillery regiment was ordered to be organized.

Apparently, General Lariboisiere recommended that fourteen officers of the Guard horse artillery regiment be transferred to the line because he considered them 'undesirable.'

Initially, Napoleon accepted the recommendation, but some of the Guard artillery officers protested and stated that Lariboisiere was prejudiced against the fourteen officers.

The Minister of War, Clarke, proposed a solution. As the officers recommended for transfer were not school-trained artillerymen and had not served in the artillery before entering the Guard, he recommended that instead of sending them to the line, they should be given the opportunity of being transferred to either the infantry or cavalry of the Guard.

Clarke sent two decrees for the Emperor's perusal and signature-one with the above recommendation and the other annulling the Emperor's decision to transfer the officers to the line.

Napoleon, in a letter to the Minister of War on 16 September 1808 regarding the fourteen officers came to the conclusion that the officers had served in the artillery and that whether or not they had graduated from a formal artillery school, 'all of them have served on battlefields for the past 14 years-which should certainly be worth as much as the study of polygons.' He then stated that if anyone was recommended to be transferred out of the Guard, he wanted a separate report on each of them, writing that 'The decrees I sign in confidence should never involve exclusion from my Guard unless I have individual reports…'

Needless to say, the fourteen officers remained in their positions in the Guard artillery. Practical service, competent service, especially during a period of upheaval, was deemed just as important as formal training to Napoleon, himself a school-trained artillery officer.

Royal Marine21 Aug 2017 11:00 a.m. PST

In 6mm none of the above matters whether in 1805-15 or 1870-71 ;-)

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