"General Lee Statue removed?" Topic

No – there were no slaves fighting on behalf of the Confederacy! This another myth that pops up from time to time that needs to be put to rest. Even had some few been addled enough to agree to it (Richmond syndrome?), the Confederates lived in mortal fear of their slaves actually getting their hands on weapons and never would have allowed it. There was something on the order of 2-300,000 freeborn and freed blacks fighting (or enlisted, at any rate) in the USA army. While they did encounter resistance and racist attitudes even there, it pales next to the Confederate policy of outright slaughtering any blacks found under arms against them.

The slaves did not "work for" their owners – they were owned by them.

EDIT: I was overhasty in the particulars, if not the broader sentiment. To forgo needless protests, I'll amend my statement. At the very end of the war, in the spring of 1865, the CSA finally relented to allowing the enlistment of blacks in the army. There had been advocates of this for some time (I believe Cleburne was one), however until the bitter end the counter-arguments were two-fold: first, what had the war been for if not protect their practice of slavery and their views of blacks as property, and second, the question was asked that if the blacks actually made good soldiers then the logic of slavery would be undone. Nevertheless, the CSA was in such dire straights that it was attempted, but my memory is that the order of enlistment was something on the order of 2000 vs 200,000 in the Union army.

Regardless, the enlistment of a few individuals who had been for their entire lives brainwashed into blind obedience and a belief in their utter inferiority to those now demanding another type of service, cannot be taken as at all comparable to the terms of Union service. The CSA law did not even guarantee their freedom after fighting.

Italwars: For the record the majority of blacks that fought in the war fought for the union. There are records of Blacks fighting and in the Confederate Army, however the number is very low, and generally the actual amount is not known.
In the past I have actually provided names and units but certain people (including a certain person from Denver), simply refuse to accept that this ever happened, (like the post right before this one), and that "They don't exist". Like this discussion, trying to get them to even look at information, much less possibly changing their mind, is like pulling teeth.

I too have read few Blacks fought for the South, as I understand it. I seems the vast majority of Black troops fought for the Union. Almost all, AFAIK.

Which is pretty much "accepted" in the history of the ACW. But as I have been frequently posting. I was not there … so …

One can only question the sincerity of the anti-statues people and their motives.

The Statues have been around for almost a century.

We had and no one said a peep. One would think that would have been the time to take the statues down and make war on the Confederacy.

America has had Fascists, KKK, American Nazi's, white Supremacists and white Nationalists for more than a hundred years.

Again you had . No one said a peep. One would have thought that

As Yoda said, "MMMMM… Much too protest doeth lady methinks"

Otto
Before you'll be DH i thanks you for being the only one, among all of u's, to have the courage to Saïd the full truth

What are the anti statue people's "motives" you ask there Otto (and I'm impressed that you managed to ask in 25,000 words or less)?

My "motive" is they never should have gone up in the first place.

The American Civil War was a rebellion against this country over which 650,000 Americans died, fought over slavery, nothing to honor or fondly look back on. Nothing about "mah rats" or "states rights"; it was about states rights to have and hold slaves.

You want to put up a memorial or a statue in a NPS battlefield site like Gettysburg or Antietam, knock yourself out; you want to put one in the center of Anytown USA to honor traitors……….nope, not ok.

And no whining from rebels about how I don't understand because I'm a "yankee" and it's got everything to do with "Mah heritage"; it's got nothing to do with your heritage.

I read on some clowns Facebook page recently this gem; "154 years ago today, my great, great uncle was at Gettysburg killing Yankees"………..wait, what? He was killing AMERICANS you broken toilet of a human being, Americans killing Americans, how sad, how pathetic.

No secret agenda or motive on my part, does that answer your question?

As for the aforementioned problem with this issue turning off people on the Civil War (which I do not believe one person has ever been) long ago I developed my own Civil War Game. This would spare the feelings of everyone involved. I posted it on the ACW armies post but I reprint it here.

In my game I assume whole hog the "Lost Cause" dogma that the war was not fought for Slavery but because the evil,wicked, racist republicans wanted to destroy the Southern Way of Life as epitomized by

MAGNOLIAS, MINT JULEPS N' GRITZ.

My Civil War Armies are composed of the old "Woodens" figures. I have Union and Confederate. I also have made several special regiments out of basswood and printing to go along with the "flats" of the "Woodens" by Windcatcher graphics.

I do however do the back story as Imagi-Nations. The Union has morphed into "The Onion Army of General Sterling Silver Service. His nickname "Silver" comes from the curious phenomenon of the tableware disappearing from every Southern mansion he has his headquarters in. General Service in my backstory is an amalgam of my two favorite Unon Generals, "Commisary Banks" and General "Spoons" Butler. Service commands the Federal Army of the Chickehammenahammenahammmena

The other side is the Cornfederate (both sides are named for the rations the crooked profiteerS sell them) and it is commanded by General Holden MahJohnson. He commands the Army of Missabama. He is patterned on the Shining stars of the South, Generals Floyd and Wise,Floyd and Wise.
Both of them were classmates at West Point where they were rivals in love for that paragon of Southern Womanhood, that Angel of the Ante-Bellum, that Belle of the Balls, Miss Fiddle de Leigh. In this Southern army the Rebel Yell is the favorite dismissive of Ms. DeLeigh-- "FIDDLE DE DEE!!!!"

" She represents the best of all that is the tradItion of Southern Womanhood- Shopping, Shoes, fashion, Rings and things and buttons and Beuxs. She has a fist of steel in an iron glove, extreme malice, and occasionally rampant criminal nymphomania. (The DeLeighs were always a little "tetched" in the head don't you know.)
Miss DeLeigh chose MaJohnson over Service, but Service soon found consolation in the arms of Miss Belle Starbuck, a girl from Massachusetts who in her own way epitomizes the virtues of NORTHERN womanhood- including a monomaniacal lust for power. She fell in love with Service because of his dashing appearance, his powerfull family connections, his remarkable sword, and his enormous, fat, huge Dunn and Bradstreet rating.

By the way MaJohnson father, Lucius MaHohnson was an up and coming man in Southern Society and married the daughter of the largest and most wealthy plantation owner in the whole South, Lobellia Licks.

In addition to these there is R.S.V.P.S.A.S.Estang. That's Reginald, Soubise, Vermandois, Pelham-Smyth, Aloicious, Sandoval, Estang. He was at West Point with Service and Johnson but he was expelled for attempting to sell state secrets to the Mexicans, and setting up a demerits fixing ring. He then married Miss Ulelie Ukelalie Umberstained, daughter of a Boston Publisher and radical abolitionist. When the war began he became a flagrant and rapacious war profiteer. For him buying Cotton in the South and smuggling it north, and buying Bonnets, corset stays, sugar, salt, top hats and silk bloomers to the South was childs play. His big trade was smuggling south completely pornographic penny dreadfuls (with the good parts already underlined so the illiterate could follow along) while shipping north that substance so necessary to any war effort, so critical to discipline and good organization and putting on a snappy appearance, that lubricant of military genius, genius, and which was the essence of martial success, -- Shinola. This all Southerners brewed carefully in the pits in the ground behind every southern home. Here the basic ingredients kept as secret as the formula for Coca-Cola was fermented with slapdash plank buildings with a seat for one and a crescent moon on the door. Larger industrial operations in cities had two and three seats and the Tredegar works were rumored to have half a hundred ! No waiting!

The armies are pretty standard stuff but there are special units like Berdan Sharpshooters and scratch built ones like the Tiger Zouaves and a host of others I have run across. There are "special units" like personalites like the Onion Generals, Moe Howard, Abner Doubleplay, General Armstrong Custard, and General Schimmellpgenning. (I know he was a real general but how can you make a name funnier than Schimmellphennig?) Miss DeLeigh's Mansion (called Tara-raboomdeay -- which has a greater resistance to shot than Douamont would have at Verdun) and 'Mushmouth an Punkin Puss" the two confederate deserters from the John Wayne Movie "The Horse Soldiers."

*Yes Virginia there is a Dogpatch, and yes Moonbeam McSwine and Stupefyin Jones have been known to show up at battles or two. So do the sweethearts of our two swains, Miss Starbuck who is rumored to be a Southern Spy, and Miss DeLeigh who is essential to the Southern garment fashion world. (Please take the curtain rod out first before you walk down the Runway Miss DeLeigh)

The whole thing is governed by a campaign system. There is no map, it's run on a flow chart. You get to choose the battles you wish. There is a list of 20. The game is won by how long the South can prolong the war. The longer you can the more chance of European recognition. Once recognition comes the Europeans will fall all over themselves buying Cornfederate War Bonds and Jefferson Dufus and his cronies and abscond with the gold and move off to Monte Carlo.

To accomplish this each side can choose offensives and through an easy process you can choose a battle to fight. Once a battle is fought, it can't be refought and the consequences of the battle determine the orders of battle, resources etc., for the rest of the game.
The battles are.

Grittysberg-
Auntie Tum's Creek
Bull Dung Run
Second Molasses
Fredericksburg of Hollywood
Gnoshville
Vicki's Burgers (2 versions)
Chatahoochiecootchie Creek
Chickahammenahammenahammena
Fort Sump Pump
New Oilins
Shinola
If it's Tuesday this must be Marvin Gardens
Mylanta (2 versions)
March to Santa Claus
The Valley Girl Campaign
Peckersburg
The Wilderbeast
Lil Snotsylvania
Viagra Falls (this is a special battle where the south invades the north through Canada.
and so on.

Of course there are all sorts of special rules, including 11" siege mortars, gunboats, pikes, shock cavalry (it'll be a real shock when you try to use it) whitworths, gattling guns, the Stonedhead Brigade and lots of "Damned Dutchmen" and "Milishy"

The premise behind the game is that Slavery was NOT the cause of the Civil War, but the insane desire of the North to destroy the Southern Way of Life and hence the name of the rules.

"Magnolias, Mint Juleps, N' Gritz"

Want to re- roll a bad die roll. Why certainly SUh, just stand on this chair and sing us a song from the civil war.

"Oh why Mistah Butla-- All this talk of Waah is so depressin'"

Yes Muggins…

My wife just came home from a ladies auxiliary or something else at her Church and told me she was talking with the town clerk here. A bunch of people came in to her office last week and wanted to know about getting a permit to rally to take down the Statue of the Confederate General in our town square. They wanted to strike a blow against the anti-fascists!

The town clerk pointed out that the statue in question was not that of a confederate general, but of a union private and was dedicated to those who had fought for the Union in the War. One of hundreds of identical monuments that occupy parks all over North Jersey.

They were insistent that they were still racists anyway and it isn't right to honor anyone from the war, and still wanted to tear it down.

So, yes muggings YOUR agenda is revealed.

Otto, you just blew the whole thing up, again. This is why we can't have nice things.

I have no idea what you're talking about with the second bit. If you mean that pages long diatribe about ye Olde Dixie, I didn't read it.

Yup… I'm the bad guy. I'm a rotten, nasty, racist, fascist, . I'm arrogant, conceited, condescending, pompous, patronizing, opinionated, and violent. I am the state of nature, brutal, nasty, mean (but not short) I'm a snob, a patriotic psychopath, a horrible person, who suffers fools not at all let along gladly (I'm retired, I don't have to suffer them because they don't pay me any more.) I am a vile person who cannot be trusted to behave myself and worthy of being turned off for not being a supporting member. I used to be one.. Editor Gwen gifted me two of them two years in a row) Oh well, how the mighty have fallen!! I am a horrible moral formalist and who believes in the evidence of my eyes and ears. I believe in SHUDDER science. I'm the incarnation of everything that is rotten, evil, awful, and everything in the world is my fault. I am the Prince of Dorkness. On the whole the world would be a better place if I had never been born. I hate everything and everyone.

Have I got them all listed? Please let me know if I forgot anything. A man's stature in life is measured by the enemies he has. It is a great disappointment to me that I have had so few great enemies. Sadly I have had to turn to quantity instead of quality.

Otto…from what I have heard, you also kick puppies and toss cute kittens into a burlap sack and toss them off a bridge into the creek below…
Oh and you also stomp on flowers in your spare time…

You mean old man you!!!!

That's neat

"Well, Dn, I doubt I'll ever sway someone of such apparently hard founded beliefs, and unfortunately the internet is ill suited to such a venture in any case."

Cat, I think I could say the same about you. You are so determined to see a nefarious purpose behind these statues that no matter what the facts are, you see nothing but racism.

"However, the simple fact remains that you have to squint willfully into the historical sun in order see the situation as you want to, attributing only the best motives to those who funded, planned, and supported an obvious program of political and cultural propaganda, while attributing only the worst to those who now have the power and voice to disagree with and dismantle that program."

And you are the exact opposite. Seeing only the worst in those who out them up and only the best in those who want them down.

"I'm not sure how much more evidence you would like, other than: 1) the monuments were overwhelmingly funded by white supremacist groups which came out of the shadows of Reconstruction at exactly that time,"

Really? Now you're just making stuff up. The vast majority of these were paid for by groups such as the United Daughters of the Confederacy, and public subscription. If you have anything to back this up, show me.

"2) were planned as public statements of white supremacy in conjunction with the controlling Jim Crow political establishment which arose at that exact time,"

Again, prove it. Your only 'proof' of this statement is that you feel this was why they were put up. Show me some actual proof and I'll believe you.

"3) were placed in glaringly public power spaces such as in front of court houses or congress buildings or in public squares to reinforce that message, rather than battlefields where their military valor would have been the central message,"

Public power spaces? That's a new term. And complete nonsense. These were put up at a time when the vast majority of people were born, lived, dies, and were buried within a fifty mile radius. A monument put up on a distant battlefield would never be seen by the people who put it up to honor their fallen. Heck, by your logic the D Day memorial in Bedford, VA should have been built in Normandy. As for 'public power spaces', why do you think monuments in D.C. are built on, or near, the Mall. Because they'll be seen there. That's where the people are. Again, using your logic all those monuments in D. C. should have been built a couple miles away in residential neighborhoods.

"4) have had as their main supporters since that time white supremacist groups who have increasingly used them as a rallying point in conjunction with pushing the myth of the Lost Cause,"

Hardly, the main supporters have always been those, north and south, who love history and respect the sacrifices of those who fell. It's funny, those who fought against those southerners. Those who had friends and family killed fighting them, generally respected them. They became friends after the war. It's only in the modern world that they have become evil Simon Lagree's unworthy of any respect or honor.

"5) have in fact always been a point of protest by elements of their local communities, whose black population and progressive elements only in this past generation were able to gain the local power to take any action, and

Okay, show me. I want to see newspaper articles from the 20s, 30s, or 40s showing me this.

"I don't think this is the argument you want to be making."

Probably not. As has been shown a couple of times on this thread, if you don't support the removal of these monuments you are automatically a white supremisct and racist.

"No – there were no slaves fighting on behalf of the Confederacy! This another myth that pops up from time to time that needs to be put to rest. Even had some few been addled enough to agree to it (Richmond syndrome?), the Confederates lived in mortal fear of their slaves actually getting their hands on weapons and never would have allowed it. There was something on the order of 2-300,000 freeborn and freed blacks fighting (or enlisted, at any rate) in the USA army. While they did encounter resistance and racist attitudes even there, it pales next to the Confederate policy of outright slaughtering any blacks found under arms against them."

There was a book written in he 80s, the name escapes me, (something along the lines of Black Confederates and Afro Virginians in the ANV). There were a handful of slaves or free blacks who fought for the Confederacy throughout the war. From memory I counted a total of about 700 in the ANV compared to 200,000 in the northern armies.

It was never Confederate policy to kill captured black soldiers. The stated policy was to sell them into slavery.

I am curious about something. I would appreciate it if someone could explain this to me.

The northerners put up statutes at about the same time the southerners did. A bit earlier as they hadn't just lost a civil war and thus still had money. But they too put up statues in town squares and parks.

Who were they trying to oppress? Factory workers? Women? I'm curious. Since the very act of putting up a statue is a blatant way of oppressing minorities, they must have been oppressing someone.

And further Muggins and people like you, where was all this hyperventilating screeching of TREASON, TREASON, TREASON by YOU and others like you in the past 152 years of our nations history.

Where was this cry of THEY WERE TRAITORS, back in 1961 to 1965 in the first centennial, and all the way down to 2011 when we had the 150th. In both we celebrated the war, the men who fought it, their (both sides) great deeds and came together as Americans of all sides, stripes and colors to commemorate the fallen and the dark days our nation went' through. I was there as a lad of 15 and I didn't see you or hear any of your screeching. Where was this hysteria back seven years ago when we were ginning up for the 150th gala of rememberence. You didn't say a peep.

I didn't see ANYONE on the Gettysburg battlefield in 1963 o4 2013 screeching at the confederate re-enactors as to what racists and fascists and satanic people they were. Everyone knew about the war, or that they were traitors in the strict sense. Everyone was happy we were still a nation, and everyone was hopeful and no one was talking about taking statues down or denigrating someone's grandpa. No one said a peep back then, and no one including YOU said squat about it. None cared about the "treason" and the sentences meted out to Davis, Lee, and others.

What do you want to do? Overturn Reconstruction and the "let em up easy" policy of Lincoln? but this has not bothered ANYONE till now. You want a retroactive "hard peace." That the Southern Generals were traitors, technically, is correct. But they were all punished at the time. What shall we do to slake your moral outrage at this treason? dig up from its grave Jeff Davis' bones and hang them on a tree and beat on them like they did Cromwell's in England? No, of course not-- you really don't car, and you really don't care about the statues at all.

So if it's really TREASON, TREASON TREASON! They why aren't you pursuing the traitors buried in the unmarked graves and tossing over gravestones of confederate dead. Are THEY not traitors too? Are those common men who fought for their cause as monstrous criminals as their generals? After all, they gave the sinews and force to the TRAITORS who seceded and set up the Confederacy and made the Flag you despise? Are you going to tear down the plaques memorializing them. Would you like to nail plaques and signs to the houses of common people who had relatives in the war? Proclaiming that they are the sons and daughters of traitors?

Two re-enactment events have already been cancelled, one at Manassas battlefield because of people like you, and many more are coming.

So what's next for you Muggins? Looting the shelves of the merchants down in Gettysburg who have confederate hats, flags, and plates and paintings because these are all symbols of oppression, emblems of infamy? slavery and treason? What's next? Going to Historicon and fire-bombing the Confederate armies of other wargamers?

If it's treason in one part, it's treason in all parts.

Or are you saving it up to be there at the dynamiting of Stone Mountain Monument and Rushmore?

No Murphy I would never hurt dogs or cats or any animals or stomp on flowers. They are all works of art and beauty.

Now you're just hyperventilating and creating straw men. Best to delete the thread.

Yeah, looks like we hit the loop point, nothing left but to !

As one of those Dastardly Denizens on the TMP Sworn Enemy site wondered…

Did we fine Americans cheer when all those statues of Stalin and Lenin came crashing down?
I remember watching the statue of Saddam Hussein come crashing down during the liberation.

I am neither a Southerner nor African American. So I have no real dog in this fight.
But didn't the Union win that war? Why are all those statues there in the first place, unless it's to rub noses in the dirt?

I wonder how many statues of Braxton Bragg are out there. He did more than anyone to lose the war. Or pick any other Rebel genius who helped to lose. Polk?
How many statues are there of Cleburne? He was actually good, and had a brilliant plan that was non racist!

I don't know, and suppose I could Google it, but I'm lazy.

To me, all those statues smack of Lost Cause tinfoil hats. Bottom line is that I don't care.

OFM!
How dare you compare Stalin or Lenin or Hussein to Robert E Lee???
Err… Slavery?

But, hey. Until the DNA test comes back, I'm 200% Irish American. Rumor has it that there was a Groark at Gettysburg. Never bothered to check, though. But he was fighting against slavery, if he existed.

The town clerk pointed out that the statue in question was not that of a confederate general, but of a union private and was dedicated to those who had fought for the Union in the War. One of hundreds of identical monuments that occupy parks all over North Jersey.

They were insistent that they were still racists anyway and it isn't right to honor anyone from the war, and still wanted to tear it down.

That is my concern based what I have seen with the knowledge of US history of the average American. And to tear down Union monuments that honor Union soldiers that fought in ACW. Erected in Northern towns, cities, etc., … Certainly sounds like madness further incited by the lack of knowledge of US history especially the ACW.

muggins

(And keep their enslaved people)

Yes absolutely, they wanted to be left alone to continue with their "Peculiar Institution". Eventually becoming the South Africa of North America.

But they had no intention to fight a war with the North. Yes the South did fire the first shot but to some people that was firing at occupation troops. The CSA never had as one of it's goals the destruction of the Union. As Davis said, "we just want to be left alone".

The same exact thing happened here in the little town of Derby, CT.

Some of the "locals" (of several ethnic backgrounds) were actually shouting and howling about taking down the "racist statue" on the Derby Green…

…it's a statue honoring CT Union soldiers from the Derby area that fought in the war.

The town clerk practically had to hold back laughter when he tried to explain to them that the statue was not confederate but union and honoring their military service.

And I knew this precise thing would happen. We have a country so hopelessly ignorant of their own history that they can't even IDENTIFY which side a statue represents, since the actual writing on the statue denoting the Civil War volunteer Conn. units means nothing to them, for all they know Connecticut was a confederate state that fought for Lee in WWII in 1895, lol.

That's how bad it is in this country. We have a population wildy "patriotic" when fireworks go off and when the Super Bowl is played, or when they elect a narcissistic game show host to be president, but at the same time with a pathetically and truly horrifically void knowledge of its own past.

And of course this means it would be absolutely useless to even attempt to explain to people the many underlying grayer issues beneath the Civil War and how slavery was intertwined into our entire national economy, not just the south….and that most ordinary southern soldiers didn't own slaves and fought because their lands were being invaded…or that Rev. War patriots like Thomas Jefferson used to brag about how little money he spent on the upkeep and care of his slaves so he could maximize the profits he made off them, etc. etc. etc.

I could go on and on and on. Our history is so multi-layered and so complex but it's been reduced to infantile-like platitudes of "good guy" vs. "bad guy".

I really do fear for our future.

Now it's getting a big heated. We should all accept that we aren't here to convince other people to change their opinions. That isn't going to happen.

As for the topic, you bring up a good point Baranovich (though in a somewhat inflammatory way). In this day and age, if you wonder about a statue and it's meaning and whether or not the person depicted is a monster, you can just pull out your phone and learn about it. It's that easy. That might give you a little more insight than just thinking "Confederate = offensive" (or just any statue for that matter).

Absurd. This is only about politics and nothing else.

We have reached George Orwell's 1984.

which wrong with right wing?…they are, all over the world, the majority of honest people…

Julian S. Carr's speech at the unveiling of the Confederate statue at UNC, June 2, 1913, where he reminisces about horse-whipping a "negro wench until her skirts hung in shreds" who had "publicly insulted and maligned a Southern lady." He referred to this as a "pleasing duty."

Full speech here: PDF link

If it wasn't for the talk of the "Anglo Saxon race" and his personal anecdote above, I might give more weight to the memorial aspect, but to me it looks more like a white supremacist mourning the loss of white supremacy.

UNC President Francis P. Venable, February 25, 1910, saying how he wants the design to "not appear as a monument to the dead but to a noble ideal and as marking the heroic period of the University's history."

Frankly, I wish that we could be as concerned about preserving THIS monument as we are about preserving monuments to the Confederacy:

link

Its a source of spiritual nourishment, truly a thing of beauty, doesn't evoke a horrific past, and preserves our national and natural heritage for ALL Americans. Once its gone, its gone forever. THIS is what keeps me up at night.

a lot of other more important things could be read in this letter in oder to total justify the placing of the statue and continuing to honoring it up today….

All I read from that letter is "CSA were the bastions of white america and I whipped a wench and enjoyed it".

I think the only people honoring him or Saunders would be doing so by tikki torch light.

tookey are you jealous?

Those quotes are pretty substantial but facts don't matter anymore.

Imagine if the South had won the war. How would that have changed history. Instead of a budding superpower the Union would have been split into two, second rate western nations.

How would WWI and WWII played out? Who would have invented the bomb? How long could the South have hung onto slavery as the basis if its economy?

Fact is, regardless of the causes, the southern states chose to rebel, and it's generals chose to commit treason against the United States.

Why would we want to erect a statue in order to revere any of them? Should we also erect statues of Cornwallis, Howe, and Arnold? Perhaps it would be okay to erect statues of Rommel and Guderian, or how about a statue of Yamamato right next to the Arizona in Pearl Harbor.

The one thing they all had in common, either directly or indirectly was that they sought the destruction of the United States, and therefore do not deserve the adoration of any who considers themselves to be an American.

"They why aren't you pursuing the traitors buried in the unmarked graves and tossing over gravestones of confederate dead."

Don't say this too loud, you'll give some of these people ideas…

a lot of other more important things could be read in this letter in oder to total justify the placing of the statue and continuing to honoring it up today….

Only if you're a hardcore racist pining for the "good ole days" of segregation and Jim Crow…

Those quotes are pretty substantial but facts don't matter anymore.

True enough. It seems we're awash in firm believers of the "Lost Cause" myth and "Southern Heritage" values (those wonderful values of segregation, racism, disenfranchisement and such). Mind you, the South does have much to be proud of, but honoring and glorifying the "Lost Cause" is NOT one of them….

"They why aren't you pursuing the traitors buried in the unmarked graves and tossing over gravestones of confederate dead."

Don't say this too loud, you'll give some of these people ideas…

Because this isn't kindergarten and we're capable of nuanced concepts…. (Or at least some of us are…)

You asked why there's no statue of Longsteert. I told you. He allied with the Republicans after the war. Why is that so hard to understand?

Well, it is hard to understand given that you've harped long and hard that the statues have everything to do with the battlefield accomplishments and nothing to do with the post-war politics. Longstreet certainly was NOT a Republican from 1861-1865. But you claim his support of the government (which, BTW, Lee also supported in his own writings) POST WAR caused him to be shunned by the "Lost Causers" who were throwing up the statues with gay abandon.

Which is it, Jackson? Or is a critical analysis of your shaky position "so hard to understand"….

It was never Confederate policy to kill captured black soldiers. The stated policy was to sell them into slavery.

A bit of an expansion…

In May 1863 the Confederacy passed a law stating that any black POW would be turned over to state authorities, where they could be tried as slave insurrectionists; a capital offense punishable by death. In fact, no black POW was ever turned over to the states for certain trial and execution. Instead, they were kept as laborers for the CSA (and suffered very harsh and brutal treatment). And while the killing of black POWs was not policy (and discouraged), we still have the Ft. Pillow (and smaller) massacres where black POWs were summarily put to death.

Looks like this statue thing is spreading. Today, in the morning news in Australia, I was shocked to hear that there is now a call to have a statue of Captain Cook have a plaque added stating he did not discover Australia because it was offensive to Aborigines to say that he did. [There was not mention of tearing it down…yet.] Presumably, in the USA something similar can be done with any statues of Columbus that may still be standing.

My interest in history led directly to my interest in wargaming. It irritates me that many computer games, and some models, are already sanitised to remove swastikas and other items. I would hate to see this sort of sanitisation also enter ACW wargaming.

I can see why people see the CSA as being fighting for slavery [rather than to maintain their state rights] but I don't see why this must lead to statues of historical figures being torn down. A. Lincoln didn't seem to originally see that a war over slavery was legal link in his inaugural address. Yet war was soon being waged and those enslaved in the USA remained in chains long after the emancipation proclamation.
There also seems to be a lot of calls of 'Traitor' of those who held high rank in the CSA. Yet, I understand that many of those men who were officers in the USA previously legally resigned their commissions before taking up positions with the CSA. Also, as pointed out previously, most, like R.E. Lee were subsequently pardoned by the USA after the war.

i really like this melting of cultures and ideologies and this good attempt to understand and take example from those who some simple mind like me dared to call barbarians…the lessons from our brothers that destroyed evil symbols in Palmira , Mosul, Timbuctu, Nimrod are becoming also in our emisphere best practices….

Quuaama, check out the Cornerstone Speech.

So my post is deleted for making a non-partisan statement about phony outrage hyped up by the press. Wow.

Just in case no one knows about the Cornerstone Speech/Address.

Here's a key part:

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

Alexander Stephens, Vice President of the Confederacy, March 21, 1861

So from that you might get the gist of why black people get annoyed by things that appear to perpetuate ideas of the Confederacy, or in the case of Statues have been erected since the Confederacy ceased to exist.

And yes, you can say its to commemorate those who died, not what they died for but in that case lets have them all on battlefield sites or in museums, not out there in Civil locations to act as rallying points for those who's agenda is way beyond that.

I knew this precise thing would happen. We have a country so hopelessly ignorant of their own history that they can't even IDENTIFY which side a statue represents,

Yes as I said, it is amazing at the lack of historical knowledge of most of the US citizens. It's just plain shocking, IMO. It's one thing to be ignorant of world history, and I think that is wrong as well. But to be so unaware of your own nation's history is just stupidity, among other things.

E.g. I asked a Lifeguard at the Y pool a day or two ago. She was @ 18-20 years old, I'd imagine. About who fought in the American Civil War. She pretty much had no idea what I was talking about. Sad … very sad …

Looks like this statue thing is spreading.

Yes all over the USA. Based on what the media is reporting. It's too bad it spread as far as Down Under.

We have a statue of a ACW soldier in the center of my town. On top of a very high obelisk. I hope no one thinks he should be removed. As it represents the Ohio units that fought in the ACW, etc. But based on current events I won't doubt that some may think that should be gone. If need be I may have to get involved if that happens.

Of course IMO the general population of my town are like many others. Is very much lack in knowledge about the ACW, AWI, WWII, etc., etc., etc.

Its like nobody has read any of the actual facts posted, just hysteria and anecdotes about interrogating random people on the street

"about interrogating random people on the street"
but random people on the street deserve more respect and their will is far more important that the scum of society manouvred and herded like sheeps that are sent to protest vs inoffensive statues and insulting the police

+100 to Muggins.