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"headgear of the Russians in 1805" Topic


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567 hits since 2 Aug 2017
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AntonK02 Aug 2017 7:02 a.m. PST

Information that may be of interest for early Russian army collectors and wargamers.
In a new book about uniforms of the Russian army( link the author found documents of the military department which specified that in 1805 at least one Jaeger regiment (the 15th) and some Musketeer regiments were issued with old-fashioned 1802 pattern hats.The reason was that the military department had the stocks of previously ordered hats.

Uniform researchers also specify that 1802 hats pattern most of the regiments in reality received in 1803. Period of usage was defined for two years. I can assume that some musketeer regiments could extend this limit due to various supply difficulties and campaigns. All this means that some regiments may wore hats in Austerlitz or even in 1806-1807 campaigns.

Personal logo jeffreyw3 Supporting Member of TMP02 Aug 2017 7:17 a.m. PST

Link required authorization. Who is the author(s) and what is the title?

AntonK02 Aug 2017 7:35 a.m. PST

Author Popov Sergei. The book Armeiskaya_i_garnizonnaya_pehota_Aleksandra_Pervogo
link

I clarify that the information above regarding the use of bicorn hat type and not the cylindrical shako which of course used by many Musketeer regiments in 1805.

Personal logo jeffreyw3 Supporting Member of TMP02 Aug 2017 8:04 a.m. PST

Thank you for clarifying. Interesting--so you think this is a worthwhile pickup, even if I have the Leonov/Popov/Kibovskii set?

AntonK02 Aug 2017 8:21 a.m. PST

It worth it if you are interested in uniformology of specific regiments for example. And old bicorn hats in 1805 undoubtedly new information about Russian infantry.
The author also point out the army instruction that the Grenadier mitres were supposed to be replaced to shako only after they wear out.
Earlier there was information about at least 16 musketier and grenadier regiments with prescribe expiry date for mitres in 1808! So not only Pavlovski fought in mitres in 1807.

Personal logo jeffreyw3 Supporting Member of TMP02 Aug 2017 9:27 a.m. PST

Spasibo Anton!

The Wargaming Company02 Aug 2017 9:43 a.m. PST

Several grenadier battalions – of both grenadier regiments and musketeer regiments – continued to wear mitres through Tilsit.

We provide plates for such indicating which wore which in our Napoleonic Campaign Guides.

It is a nice touch that lets players add a bit more historical color to their armies.

-TWC
thewargamingcompany.com

AntonK02 Aug 2017 10:56 a.m. PST

Although your 1805 Campaign Guide is colorful and very useful for wargames you can not guarantee that it is completely accurate regarding the uniforms of the Russian regiments. I dont have your 1805 guide but particularly your official example sheet shows Vladimir regiment in bright purple collar with red shoulder straps, which were replaced in 1804 to dark green collar with white shoulder straps. This fact is specified in several Russian works on the uniforms. Also in your example image the grenadiers of the Vyatka regiment pictured with 1805 pattern shako with a thick black plume wich is also questionable.Russian military researchers only have information that the guards and grenadiers of the Apsheron regiment definitely wore new shako with plume during Austerlitz. It is also worth noting that even the French have mentioned that the Russians were fighting in greatcoats during the 1805 campaign.

The Wargaming Company02 Aug 2017 12:33 p.m. PST

AntonK,

Our goal is to provide comprehensive information for wargamers to the best of our ability, we don't represent our products as academic studies. Similarly, our maps are also not truly topographical, and there are certainly inaccuracies in precise scaling. But, for the intended use, I would put both up against anything else designed and published for the wargaming market.

For the purpose of academic research the desire to obtain "definite information" to verify what regiments changed over gear is an appropriate standard. For wargaming, Russian researchers have not been able to definitely determine that no one but the Apsheron regiment had changed over to shakos, only that a diary from the Apsheron regiment indicates it had. The rest of the regiments are left to conjecture from less direct evidence. And, as I'm sure you can imagine, the source material available to you in Russia and our operation in the United States have different strengths. So we do our best with what is available.

You note that Russians wore greatcoats at Austerlitz, and we completely agree, which is why we provide images of the French, Austrians, and Russians in greatcoats, as well as without – and note that the French were not supplied by the Army but procured by individuals and at the regimental level – because some wargamers want to paint their troops in coats, and some will need to know what they looked like out of them. The sample images on our website show uniforms outside of greatcoats as, with both included, one provides wargamers with a better idea of the artwork.

As you note, without having a copy of our book, it can be hard to know what to expect from a publication like our Napoleonic Campaign Guides, so we try to put much more information and samples from them online than one sees from most any other similar wargaming publication.


-TWC
thewargamingcompany.com

AntonK02 Aug 2017 1:05 p.m. PST

Thanks for the clarification regarding your products. As I said it is colorful and very useful for wargames. In fact your guide is actually very good for what it is. And I'm even consider to buy it))

The Wargaming Company02 Aug 2017 1:14 p.m. PST

AntonK,

Thank you.

Magister Militum carries our products in Europe, if you do decide to pick up any of our publications, they may be your best route in terms of keeping shipping costs low.

-TWC
thewargamingcompany.com

nsolomon9902 Aug 2017 6:54 p.m. PST

Thanks Anton, great information. This all makes perfect sense to me, no army throws away perfectly good, un-used uniforms! Certainly not in this period when the uniforms cost more than the manpower. I love the earlier uniforms and use them in my 1807 Russian forces, AB do a great early Russian range.

Le Breton03 Aug 2017 5:34 a.m. PST

The book at the link is not exactly brand new : it was published in 2010. However, I do concur with Anton that any general "campaign guide" could do with some double-checking unit-by-unit for those who would care about such precision.

That said, the 15th Jäger regiment was in the Crimean (later Caucasian) Inspection, then the 20th Infantry division. They served in the Caucasus through the entire period, and wore forage caps except when ordered into "parade dress". So, their supply/equipment situation may not too informative as an example for regiments facing the French and their allies. More interesting (and not included in the linked book by Popov) is how perhaps ephemeral was the use of the round "top-hat" style headgear by Russian jäger : use only by 8 regiments for a few months in 1803 has been confirmed.

The Musketeer regiments noted by Sergey Alekseyevich for this late issue of bicorns (Sevastopol, Saratov and Vologda) were also in the Caucasus.

Jcfrog Supporting Member of TMP05 Aug 2017 1:23 a.m. PST

Where in Russia are you Anton?
Big in everything, thing in wargamers, thinner in numbers I can talk to;)

dibble05 Aug 2017 12:15 p.m. PST

This may be of help:

link

Paul :)

AntonK09 Aug 2017 5:36 a.m. PST

I did not know that the book is quite old. Le Breton, can you clarify about jager «ephemeral use of the round top-hat»? What headgear used particularly for the 1805 campaign – 5,6,7 regiments? According to Popov and other works jagers ordered to wear line infantry shako only in 1807. So if not «top round hats» then bicorns might be?

Hi Jcfrog, Im from Moscow

Three Armies Supporting Member of TMP09 Aug 2017 5:38 a.m. PST

I will be making my 1805 Russians with a selection of different headgear, mitres bicorns and shakos.

AntonK09 Aug 2017 5:59 a.m. PST

Dibble Link above only gives a general idea of headgear.

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