"Adios Fredericksburg.......thanks for the memories" Topic

Well The King 30 , Gen Con etc is not historical gaming and mainly roll playing ! Board games are the big thing for many reasons ( cost, room, lazyness etc..) As to Flames and Bolt Action , there not necessary new gamers are they ?

I think my point is any hobby that takes a lot of effort and History in particular is on the down swing right now and maybe for ever .

another example would be I was a Civil War reenactor for many years and commanded many units from company size to brigade size and can tell you that the high point of the hobby was during the 1980s ( 125th Ann.) .While there are still decent turnouts the numbers are steadily shrinking .

Wish I was wrong ,but numbers across the board for Historical interest is steadily going down .

P.S. When I was kid back in the 1960s if the Movie Dunkirk had come out there would be lines out side the movie theaters . As it stands I would bet this movie crashes .

But are our conventions strictly Historical? At Historicon I saw people playing Kings of War, others playing 40k and still others playing X Wing. Miles game featured a red dragon (completely unhistorical – it should have been a yellow dragon!).

There is the "greying" of the hobby but I also see allot of new blood. Heck – in my FLGS I met someone who was doing a large colonial force using Copplestone figures. I got to talking with him and it turns out he really wasn't familiar with any of the HMGS cons!!!!

My point is that there is still room to grow and improve this hobby of ours.

Some quick thoughts:

1. The February model train show at Timonium packs them in. IRRC, this past February they saw 9,000+ through the door in two days.

Further, train shows are not on the decline according to this article:

link

2. Yes, certain periods of historical re-enacting are smaller – but I suspect the overall universe is the same, or perhaps even up. Back in the 60s the ACW centennial was the thing. Then in the 70s the bicentennial of the AWI was the thing. Many AWI re-eanctors returned to ACW bringing with them higher authenticity standards. There were only really a handful of meaningful re-eactment periods in the 80s (as covered by an article of TIMES magazine at the time) – ACW being the largest, then AWI, then perhaps F&I and WWII. There are so many re-enactment periods now I can't even count them – SCA, ACW, AWI, 1812, WWI, WWII, Pirates, Vikings, Vietnam – the list goes on and on.

3. My opinion – HMGS shows have grown stale. They offer the same thing, again, and again, and again. Three times a year. Meandering themes – some of which make no sense. It has slipped from its original mission of promoting and supporting historical miniature games, allowing in unrestricted numbers of fantasy/sci fi stuff. Attendance has not benefited from that. And just like the previous point – these non-core games have not brought in new gamers to the con (nor would I expect that), but they have provided alternative games to those likely already there. Point being – HMGS has lost of lot of its original reason for being – and being different over other multi-gaming cons.

Further, the growth of internet sales has likely impacted both dealer and buyer/player attendance.

If simple numbers are the goal, then let all kinds of gaming in – magic cards, GW, board games, etc. But if the focus truly is on historical miniature gaming – then make that the focus. Quit worrying about overall attendance. Bigger is not always better, and creates a whole slew of problems of its own. Find decent facilities and hold well managed cons – which isn't always the case. Note the recent kurfuffle regarding the PEL registration dates for Fall In (see other thread on this board). HMGS seems to keep stumbling over the same problems again, and again, then wonders why attendance drops off.

My opinion – HMGS shows have grown stale. They offer the same thing, again, and again, and again.

Two questions:

1) I'm not familiar with the model train shows. Are they different every year?

2) In what what way should we make the HMGS cons different every time?

If simple numbers are the goal, then let all kinds of gaming in – magic cards, GW, board games, etc. But if the focus truly is on historical miniature gaming – then make that the focus.

Are you sure you weren't playing Kings of War this weekend? Dressed up as an Ork?

Hisotrygamer,
No offense, but the article you referenced about how the model railroading hobby is booming is almost two years old; since then, I'd venture to guess the hobby has lost a chunk of it's core members.

Have you been to a model railroading show; I've been to several to scope out the terrain options for wargaming and to check them out as far as a potential new revenue stream.

The shows I've been to seemed to be well attended, but there is a big difference between high attendance numbers and actual BUYERS, I saw few if any attendees walking around with bags. To many, it's simply a day out to look at trains.

I know several model train retailers and for the most part, they tell me the shows are all circling the drain/taking on water as far as the one thing that matters, sales dollars.

I've been a toy soldier retailer for about 20 years; all the toy soldier shows are taking on water and as you pointed out, the internet/websites/Ebay/Amazon/Facebook/Pinterest and other forms of on line selling/information gathering are gaining ground, shows are losing ground.

Wargaming conventions are a different animal as the main purpose of them is to game, not shop, the shopping is secondary, maybe it should be, the gaming is the main attraction.

"The real 800 pound gorilla in the conversation is the on-going renovation schedule of the Host with work on the Tennis Barn scheduled to start this Fall. What impact is incurred to future HMGS shows we'll just have to wait and see once this year's Fall In comes and goes. Hopefully the BOD will be forth coming with information rather then retreat beneath their cone of silence. Only time will tell."

In actuality the renovations to the the Host's Tennis Barn is already well underway (since May/June). The latest information we received was that ALL the renovations are scheduled to be complete shortly after Fall-in '17 and should be wrapping up around the turn of the new year (2018).

Tom
…..
Tom Uhl
Education Director HMGS

"P.S. When I was kid back in the 1960s if the Movie Dunkirk had come out there would be lines out side the movie theaters . As it stands I would bet this movie crashes."

Apparently, happily, you would lose that bet:
link

I've enjoyed all the Fredericksburg Cons, traffic was not too bad as I discovered if I left before 8am on Thursday I would arrive about the time 95 was starting to get congested, same thing on Sunday on the way home. As far as the FCC I like the Host slightly better, but then I never stay at the Host. I really enjoy downtown Fredericksburg, but the inescapable problem was each year fewer people and venders came. I am not in the hospitality business so I could be completely naοve, but I can't see a business shelling out what 8 million for a place that they know needs work and then not putting in the work. By the same way I can't see any firm in the hotel business (as I understand the new owners are) buying a place and not knowing what it will cost to fix it up. I also don't see people in the business buying a place without knowing what the upper limit on what they can charge. As for the folks that we have lost they are I suspect gone they quit HMGS not so much because of the move as much as the "eat … " attitude they came from the BODs back then. But there is a bigger population to draw from being just two and a half hours from NYC, so hopefully more day trippers which will mean more happy vendors.

Great input from everyone here and I can see we all have the best of intentions towards our hobby. One thing is for sure our hobby needs folks to keep supporting the hobby thru participation at the various cons and of course spending our hard earned dough with the dealers . We are truly blessed to live in a era and country that allows us to be "Gamers" !

Attendance has not benefited from that.

We just don't know at this point. There is lots of crossover. I like historical, sci-fi, and fantasy miniature games. Maybe people holding more non historical games is due to a stale convention scene as you put it?

Quit worrying about overall attendance. Bigger is not always better,

Well if attendance continues to go the way its been going, pretty soon Otto can negotiate a good rate at The Continental for historicon.

+1 to TSD101

Im not sure what more a convention can due then to have people run games and dealers show up to sell there wares ,flea markets,Historical College talks, painting classes ? I don't think puppet shows or Alligator wrestling would help much ,but it would be something different . I remember back in the day some cons had painting compations for ribbons and such .
Like TSD101 said there is lots of crossover , I still contend that the crossover is due to the ever dwindling interest in all things HISTORICAL . Like it or not generations change based on the world they live in . As I grew up almost all the men I knew had fought in WWI and more numerous of course was WWII. The TV was flooded with War shows like Rat Patrol,Combat,McCales Navy,F Troop not to mention the flood of WWII and Cowboy movies . Now Star Wars and The Hobbit have taken there place .

I think there is allot that can be done. I really think our methods of communication leave allot to be desired. I think Hobby University isn't promoted enough. I think there should be an official U Tube channel devoted to these conventions – manned by someone who knows how to take great videos. HMGS should also try to get on more podcasts.

That's just scratching the surface…

TheKing30 that sounds very reasonable . I would guess we need some volunteers to put together a Communication Panel to work on some of the ideas you mentioned . Getting the word out is a key component to success of a hobby like ours . This panel might be best served by some of the younger folks who live this type of tech and would give them a feeling of participation in the future of HMGS .

Double GG said:

"…the gaming is the main attraction."

I agree. And what has been done to improve and promote that? Not much. Other than register all comers and put tables out, HMGs does little else to improve upon the most important part of their product – the games.

"We just don't know at this point. There is lots of crossover."

Well, we kind of do know. At least in Hcon's case, and I believe the other cons, while non-historical games have increased, attendance has not. Like you, many people attending are cross over gamers. At best, if you give people a choice they will exercise it. But that doesn't mean it helps attendance, as it hasn't.

Attendance is not horrible. No one said it was when the conventions were at those numbers before. One could argue the push to increase attendance has had some pretty bad results. I would prefer a more focused con (in games, dealers and flea market) in a nicer conference center facility instead of come one, come all with a loss of focus and poorer quality games. HMGS doesn't have to be the biggest (it never will), only the best at what it is supposed to be about. The rest will follow.

I think it is potentially dangerous to make comparisons with model train conventions. There are some significant differences between wargames and model rail-roading. The buying patterns are quite different. How many wargamers have say a dozen or 20 'Star' Pieces costing (potentially)into the 1,000s with usually no more than one or two fixed layouts with significant longevity.

Contrast that with for example an ancients tournament wargamer – who may own dozens upon dozens of armies, each with many hundred pieces.

The sales pattern for these two is quite different.

historygamer , Great post ! More focus on the Historical game and less on how many folks come thru the door is paramount to calling yourself "HISTORIC0N" .

Khusrau, I really don't know what to say as you missed the point !

Someone brought up the comparisons to re-enacting and train shows. I produced an article showing an all time high attendance and Double GG pointed out the article was a few years old – but only one year old regarding the convention attendance (2016 vs 2017). No, it's not current, but I don't think a one year old con attendance number is exactly out of date for consideration to the discussion. And I'll defer to all the dealers/vendors I see renting tables at the big Timonium show knowing if it is worth their time or not.

A recent re-enactment event at Gettysburg only had (ahem) 5,000 participants. Of course it isn't an anniversary year, but I'd say 5,000 is pretty darned good for a non-anniversary year.

There is no direct comparison of wargame conventions to these other two except they reflect people who have disposal income and the time to devote to them – just like wargaming conventions.

My local wargame store is packed and has a mix of everything from Magic cards to FoW tournaments. They also have a very healthy local wargaming club that shows up every Sunday to run a game of different periods.

So what does all that mean? It means that people will attend something if they want to and will spend the money to participate. At the end of the day HMGS is a business (non-profit) that puts on wargaming conventions. The center piece of their activities (and they have lots of them) is supposed to be the games. Yet they put little effort into understanding that part of their product. Almost none. They have no ideas what games or periods are popular. They put no effort into trying to promote more games/periods that are popular. They could do that be reserving so many slots/tables for such things. They have no idea whose games are well attended and what GMs don't even show up (no-shows either self report or someone has to go upstairs and complain to someone of authority the game didn't show. Whether that person writes it down or not on a big flip chart is another matter, and yet another matter still if such data is compiled from con to con).

If anyone else can point me to such a business model (or lack thereof), I'd be interested in hearing about it. :-)

Historygamer,

In the past you mentioned the "sci-fi and fanstasy gamers" as if they were a separate group from the rest of us at the HMGS cons. We slowly convinced you that it wasn't the case. It was historical gamers who did crossover gaming.

Now you say:

At least in Hcon's case, and I believe the other cons, while non-historical games have increased, attendance has not. Like you, many people attending are cross over gamers. At best, if you give people a choice they will exercise it. But that doesn't mean it helps attendance, as it hasn't.

So I played some Kings of War this Historicon…….terrible, I know. I am primarily a historical gamer but I do enjoy other types of games with my friends. So when the 6 of us played a few rounds of KoW, I didn't know it was in order to increase attendance for the HMGS. Here I thought it was just for us to have fun.

Perhaps I'm just missing your point, but I'm just repeating what others have said to justify the unregulated growth of such games.

I'm sure you and your friends could have fun doing a lot of other things too, but it doesn't mean HMGS should be supporting it, especially when there is no proof it helps their core mission or business.

…..but it doesn't mean HMGS should be supporting,….

So should they be actively discouraging this? Many people came by and asked what we were playing, and what the rules were, what figures we were using, etc. Should we have just told them to off?

…..especially when there is no proof it helps their core mission…..

I don't seem to care about the "core mission" as much as you do. Sorry.

Perhaps I'm just missing your point, but I'm just repeating what others have said to justify the unregulated growth of such games.

I'm sure you and your friends could have fun doing a lot of other things too, but it doesn't mean HMGS should be supporting it, especially when there is no proof it helps their core mission or business.

Interesting. We played Kings of War. There were others playing 40k. Others played Victorian Science Fiction. Still others played various historical games. But we all have one thing in common..

We paid to be there and play games. HMGS didn't do us any favors.

Moral of the story? Everything changes.

Someone brought up the comparisons to re-enacting and train shows. I produced an article showing an all time high attendance and Double GG pointed out the article was a few years old – but only one year old regarding the convention attendance (2016 vs 2017). No, it's not current, but I don't think a one year old con attendance number is exactly out of date for consideration to the discussion. And I'll defer to all the dealers/vendors I see renting tables at the big Timonium show knowing if it is worth their time or not.

HG, you're more than a bit out of touch re: Model Railroading. And the article you posted (from Kalmbach's site) is about a show they own.

The raw facts are this: Once there more such shows working the circuit. In SoCal, there were 7 such shows a year (that was some 15 years ago). Now there are 3. And the overall yearly attendance is down. Those train shows are vendor shows; the purpose is the SELL. And acoording to friends in the biz (I used to own/work in the hobby industry for 15 years and am a 50+ year model railroader and many contacts in the trade) the sales have been stagnant for a long time. And there are other facts you're not aware of, like the average age of model railroaders continues to rise (the "graying" of the hobby), that the number retailers (B&M and online) has shrunk, that the number of distributors and manufacturers has shrunk, that the number of new releases (and the size of their runs) has shrunk.

Before you use some PR flack's release to buttress your argument (and do so in such a loud manner), you may want to look a bit deeper…

I'm sure you and your friends could have fun doing a lot of other things too, but it doesn't mean HMGS should be supporting it, especially when there is no proof it helps their core mission or business.

It strikes me that if HMGS were to adopt your rigorous outlook, that finding suitable space would become a breeze; any 2 car garage would do…

We paid to be there and play games. HMGS didn't do us any favors.

Moral of the story? Everything changes.

Truer words never spoken…

Bowman wrote: "So should they be actively discouraging this? Many people came by and asked what we were playing, and what the rules were, what figures we were using, etc. Should we have just told them to Bleeped off?"

I think I illustrated my point rather well. HMGS does nothing to manage any of its gaming in any way. So obviously they really don't care what you do, how many players you have, etc. And I'm pretty sure you don't represent HMGS, so your suggested rude behavior is a complete non sequitur and just plain silly.

Bowman wrote: "I don't seem to care about the "core mission" as much as you do. Sorry"

And sadly, neither do most BoD members these days. You can ask the fans of Fredericksburg how that is going. Oh, and you never had to convince me that people attending the HMGS shows who play fantasy games also play historical games as well. My point is, why offer them the choice given the supposed mission of the organization? Clearly the increase in all games offered has not resulted in an increase in attendance. And spare me the "imagine how bad it would be without them" defense. That would contradict your earlier admission that you, and likely most others play both. I never believed any significant number of fantasy-only gamers drove to Lancaster/Fredericksburg either. That makes little sense to me.

Charlie 12 wrote: "…you're more than a bit out of touch re: Model Railroading."

Not really. I attend the train shows outside of Baltimore all the time. They are packed, and I see all age groups there. All. And unless you were standing at the front door with a counter in your hand, I doubt that either of us are really qualified to question the reported attendance in the story. Even if off by a couple thousand, so what? Evidently it was a huge show. But you miss the point – people will spend their time and money as they see fit. Apparently, for whatever reasons, they have not seen fit to continue supporting Hcon for many years now, and the attendance at the other two cons has waffled – at best. So unless you are arguing the other people died off, or are in nursing homes, your position doesn't seem to hold water. I know lots of people a variety of ages who no longer attend.

HMGS built its house on promoting historical miniature gaming with an emphasis on military games and activities. Somewhere in the rush to increase attendance, go to the next level, and move to "nicer facilities" it seems to have lost both its way and its attendance at the once flagship, Mother of all Wargaming conventions.

Adopt "my" rigorous outlook? It was the HMGS I joined. It was their outlook, but I did support it. I'm not the one that left the outlook, and the results speak for themselves. That and the lack of any management of the games they put on. But don't worry, nothing is going to change. The Genie is out of the bottle and there is no putting it back.

Now, about the peace proposal in the Middle East… :-)

I think people are making this too complicated. HMGS moved the show from where it had been for a quarter century. Back when the moves first occurred, there was a lot of arrogance about the move. Short of an outbreak of infectious disease, I can't imagine a more effective strategy to damage an event. The whole unsavory Baltimore episode, and all the money that was squandered (and the attempts to recoup by piling more costs on vendors and attendees) didn't help. Yes, it's still cheap to attend, but "we ignored what you wanted and now we're raising prices on you to recoup what we lost dining stupid stuff you never wanted" is not a convincing argument.

How fixable it all is remains to be seen, but it doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to figure out what happened.

WOW! Ok now that we all got that crap off our chest . Rehashing the past does us no good other then to try to learn from the pros and cons of whats been done . Now we need to look forward to get Historicon and others on track for hopefully a more positive future and the fun side of our hobby . Those that have good ideas should attempt to influence the BOD in some form or another to get some changes implemented if possible . GAME ON !

Funnily, all the wide genre shows (Gen Con, PAX, Adepticon) are growing year on year and feature a fair number of historical games. I would also note that they charge a lot more money for admission than Historicon (which is really a bargain comparatively). (Though Adepticon doesn't charge for people to play free demo games or to shop.)

A local con here in Madison, GameHoleCon has grown year on year and is in their 5th year now with 3,000 presold tickets. There are a number of historical events already scheduled for this year's show (and the HMGS Midwest chapter is running some of them) and I have played in FOW and Bolt Action games at this show, which features cosplayers, True Dungeon and lots of sci fi and rpgs.

These other shows have found a path to success (and are charging more to boot) while not excluding any games. It seems that mixed game conventions are finding success, even with local historical gamers. I wonder why Historicon still struggles to find success elusive.

HMGS does not exclude any miniature games. I've seen everything from race cars to soccer games run at their cons.

Painting and game awards to all sorts of genres too.

So can you really say that Hcon, FI and CW aren't mixed cons with a straight face? Somehow I don't think that is part of the problem. CD is much closer, though there are other reasons too.

Don't worry about Murphy, he's probably an nice guy.

Thanks War Scorpio, I try to be

And HMGS Midwest membership is up by almost 20% because of the most recent "Little Wars" Convention.

They are doing something right…

HMGS does not exclude any miniature games. I've seen everything from race cars to soccer games run at their cons.

True, but it doesn't encourage non-historicals, either (like the 'big tent' shows do).

So can you really say that Hcon, FI and CW aren't mixed cons with a straight face? Somehow I don't think that is part of the problem.

Yes, you can. HMGS has never actively encouraged the other genres. And, if we use your interpretation, those non-historicals would be discouraged.

Historicals are small niche hobby. That's becoming smaller everyday (whether you want to believe or not, its definitely 'graying', the demos show it). Pushing out non-conforming games in the quest for 'historical purity' is a guaranteed way to kill the cons off, once and for all.

Me, I go to play the games. And run games. And I don't care if its as Brits at Waterloo, the Union at Antietam, Biggles in the '30s, or the Empire at Mos Eisley. If everybody has good times and good laughs, then its ALL good. Its all about the GAMES….

Not really. I attend the train shows outside of Baltimore all the time. They are packed, and I see all age groups there. All. And unless you were standing at the front door with a counter in your hand, I doubt that either of us are really qualified to question the reported attendance in the story.

Actually they do count the the numbers. And the sales. And they're not that impressive compared to past years. As one retailer I know snorted when I told him of your remark, "I'd trade a 100 damn looky-lous for one good SALE!"

HG-Stay in your lane. In this area, you're waaaay out of your league…

This latest Historicon was my first miniatures gaming convention. I joined this hobby about a year ago at the age of 47. I am mostly interested in playing fantasy, sci-fi, pulp, and horror miniatures games. What I gather are called "historical" games are intriguing to me, but not enough so that I will invest my time and money in that area in addition to the other genres I am more interested in playing in.

All of that out of the way, as a newcomer to the hobby and Historicon, I have to admit I'm pretty discouraged by the "purist" philosophy of "historygamer" and a couple of others here. I almost didn't come to Historicon because there weren't as many non-historical games listed in the program as I hoped there might be. But I found that on Friday and Saturday there were at least two games listed in the program each day that I could play in, so I went ahead and took the day off of work and drove down for the con.

And I'm incredibly glad I did! I had a blast, and have been riding the high ever since. In fact, what brought me to this very message board was my doing a search for other miniature gaming cons I could look forward to going to in the near future. I was already ruminating over trying to get a fantasy game together (perhaps the skirmish-based Song of Blades and Heroes) to submit for consideration to a future Historicon. Now I'm getting a sense that some share of Historicon attendees look down on these genres, see them as a dilution, and wish they weren't included in the program. That's a bummer.

If Historicon (or any other hypothetical tabletop miniatures convention) had any fewer non-historical gaming opportunities than this past Hirtoricon, I almost would certainly skip it. Which means I wouldn't have spent $50 USD for a HMGS membership or bought a weekend pass to the show. It means I would not have dropped about $350 USD in Wally's Basement and the dealer's room. And I wouldn't have met about a half dozen people I didn't know before who have subsequently reached out to me or responded to my overtures to get together to game outside of Historicon sometime in the future.

I left with such a nice feeling of how congenial and welcoming everybody at the show was, so it disappoints me to find these weird "ideological" divisions between historical vs. non-historical gamers. I thought it was all about getting together and playing with our miniatures, admiring each other's craft with terrain, etc., and having fun escaping the humdrum of the daily grind.

A side note to historygamer: you are arguing an unknowable when you say that opening up the con to more non-historical games didn't increase attendance. While that may or may not be true in the aggregate, having more non-historical games may have compensated for and staved off what would have been an even more precipitous decline in attendance if the focus had stayed rigidly historical. Frankly, you (and I) just don't know…

Anyway…Like I said, I had a great time, and folks are welcome to check out my blog for my reflections on my Historicon experience as a first timer to a gaming con and a newbie to this great hobby.

Scrum in Miniatures:

link

The Bibliophiles note is what I like to see. Its nice to grow the number of happy warriors, The graying of the hobby and the frailty of some of us is alarming but we must nod to aging. So if we can have new people join us and become part of our merry band of brothers, I am all for it. Even if scify or fantasy brought them in, many of us enjoy all forms of gaming. Maybe The Bibliophile will cross over to the Historical side once he gets a few conventions under his belt?

Charlie 12 said:

"True, but it doesn't encourage non-historicals, either (like the 'big tent' shows do)."

Well, in fact, they encourage them to the same level as any other games(with the exception of theme games, which is minimal encouragement at best). They also give non-historicals painting awards and game awards – so what more do you want? They get the same exact treatment and encouragement as any other games. I'm kind of surprised you don't know that.

"HMGS has never actively encouraged the other genres. And, if we use your interpretation, those non-historicals would be discouraged."

See above, as they treat them like any other registered game, no more or less. Further, they can hold all kinds of mini tournaments (Frost Grave?), and usually have an entire room dedicated to Tech Wars (or something like that). No games are discouraged, so what are you complaining about?

"Actually they do count the the (train show) numbers. And the sales. And they're not that impressive compared to past years. As one retailer I know snorted when I told him of your remark, "I'd trade a 100 damn looky-lous for one good SALE!"

"HG-Stay in your lane. In this area, you're waaaay out of your league…"

Sales to attendance is apples to watermelons. I see lots of stuff I don't buy at train shows. For the Timonium show they get 9,000 through in two days. That's all any show can do is provide the people, not guarantee sales. Maybe your friend is selling junk as I see a lot of junk for sale at train shows. Old cars missing wheels or couplers, dirty, dusty, broken junk. That said, I belong to one of the largest train clubs supporting the Great Scale shows at Timonium, so perhaps you are out of your lane trying to correct me. I know, we're all geniuses here. :-)

I would also point out that HMGS is a gaming convention with dealers, not a dealers convention with games.

Bibliophile wrote:

"I have to admit I'm pretty discouraged by the "purist" philosophy of "historygamer" and a couple of others here. I almost didn't come to Historicon because there weren't as many non-historical games listed in the program as I hoped there might be."

So you are complaining that there wasn't enough cake at a pie eating contest? Still, I am glad you came and had a good time none the less.

"A side note to historygamer: you are arguing an unknowable when you say that opening up the con to more non-historical games didn't increase attendance. While that may or may not be true in the aggregate, having more non-historical games may have compensated for and staved off what would have been an even more precipitous decline in attendance if the focus had stayed rigidly historical. Frankly, you (and I) just don't know…"

Well, others here insist the non-historical games are largely populated by people who cross over to both game types. And I would remind you, the blade cuts both ways – meaning – the more non-historical games, etc., populate HMGS shows, the less relevant they become for people who only/mainly have an interest in history. And, the attendance numbers speak for themselves.

" Maybe The Bibliophile will cross over to the Historical side once he gets a few conventions under his belt?"

And maybe not – which is my point exactly. It is an uncertain proposition to hope more fantasy gaming leads to more people developing an interest in military history – at least at an HMGS convention. The BoDs always seem to be chasing the elusive "next level" and "greater attendance at any cost" which has led the organization into near disastrous financial and contractual decisions.

So question to the original poster of this thread:

Double GG:

1. How many fantasy conventions do you attend a year?
2. If you do, how are your sales?
3. Do you find you do better at bigger or smaller conventions/shows?
4. Since the increase of non-historical games at HMGS shows, have you seen your sales go up/down/remain the same?

Just curious. Inquiring minds want to know. :-)

Historygamer, instead of derailing every thread with your "historical vs non-historical gaming" argument, may I make a suggestion?

Why don't you create a new thread with this as a specific topic. Explain to us how you would encourage more historical gaming, how you would police the GMs in this attempt, and how you would get the conventions back on track and more in line with the "core mission" of the HMGS.

If you provide us with specific points, we can see the merits and usefulness of your suggestions. Otherwise these are just platitudes, right? You may find that you and your critics are not that far apart.

Bowman,

Then I'd miss seeing cakes and pie-eating contests show up on multiple threads :))

But, really, good suggestions on focusing discussion in a maybe more helpful way. Ideas worth kicking around, for sure.

I'm not sure how I am credited with derailing the thread. In reviewing it, the posts seem to wander all over the landscape, and I initially replied about re-enacting numbers and train shows – both of which I am involved with, so know something about the subjects.

I do find it funny that people repeatedly come on here and decry the lack of non-historical gaming at HMGS conventions – and yes, the pie/cake eating comparison is an apt one indeed. Then right after that always comes the "imagine how awful attendance would be without such games, yada, yada, yada."

I can't really take credit for it though, someone else (Norris) posted it a long time ago. I miss his posts.

Okay, I'll bite. I'll post a new thread in the next few days. I have some fires to put out first – just back from a vacation.

You realize, of course, it will just be another exercise of shooting off electrons with nothing resulting, right? Anyone who has worked for HMGS knows how it really works (or doesn't).

By the way, have any of you been reading the Fall In 2017 thread?

TMP link

KING 30 hit the nail on the head, I've seen so much money over the years thrown away on things that never helped the hobby, new tech is the future PODCASTs and such are spot on!

Historygamer said: "So you are complaining that there wasn't enough cake at a pie eating contest? Still, I am glad you came and had a good time none the less."

As a newcomer, I didn't realize it was a "pie-eating contest"; I thought it was a pot-luck buffet. Like I said in my original post, if I thought it was a pie-eating contest, I probably wouldn't have bothered coming.

Not trying to pick a fight here, just offering a newcomer's perspective to a conversation at least partially about sustaining a hobby and strengthening attendance at the show (which I understand the latter is less important to some folks like Historygamer for their own reasons).

As for the "cross-over" question, I have been sorely tempted to try my hand at a "historical" game…the tables at Historicon looked amazing, and I even backed the latest release of the WWII-based "Disposable Heroes 2" ruleset on Kickstarter. But again, I've only been at this a year, and the other genres are currently occupying my spare time and disposable income.

To answer your questions Historygamer;

1.) None since I offer nothing in the way of fantasy product, I wouldn't attend a single one of them if my tables/booths were free.
2.) See my answer to question #1.
3.) I do much better at all three major HMGS conventions than at any of the smaller ones I attend, it's not even close.
4.) My sales at the HMGS conventions from show to show and year to year seems to go up and down, no real rhyme or reason to it. The increase of non historical games has had zero impact on my sales, nor should it.

Bibliophile, just fyi the lay of the land (at least as far as I know it): There's a lot of old timers here that still resent how historical minatures gaming was treated by Origins and other game cons. That's why HMGS was created. The leadership now understands that they need to keep other genres available, but their charter isn't about gaming, it's about history. As the good game cons for other genres migrated to the midwest, where it's cheaper and gaming is a bigger draw, many east cost gamers investigated HMGS cons. There's a small but very loud group that says they don't want them there.

Most of the people at HMGS cons are great. I've met a lot of wonderful people. But you will never truly be 'welcome' if you enjoy other games – there will always be some asshat snearing at you and wanting you to go away.

I'd recommend for the best experience staying off the forums about the cons themselves. Just go and have fun.

I can't speak for others, but I have never resented non-historical games at HMGS cons. They have been a part of the HMGS cons for as long as I can remember (late 80s), but I just don't want to see them take over, and I prefer HMGS to keep its core mission. I don't see the two things as incompatible, but they are if it isn't managed – which it isn't.

Colonial Williamsburg announced last week that it would lay off 71 workers and outsource its shops, golf courses and building management after it had lost $277 USD million from operations in the last five years and had drained its endowment to the point it would run out in eight years if nothing changed. A commercial arm of the foundation, the Colonial Williamsburg Company, hasn't made an annual profit since its start in 1983.

Reiss has said business decisions that preceded him, diminished American history lessons in schools and changing desires have affected the attraction's financials.

I know a good bit about this too, but am afraid to comment for fear Charlie 12 is a self professed expert on this subject as well.

CW loses $147,000 USD a day.

Peak attendance was 2.2 million in 1988. Last year it was about 660k.

Nearby Busch Gardens gets about 1.6 million a year in paid attendance.

National Colonial Park gets about the same amount of visitors a year (Yorktown, Jamestown, Green Spring Plantation).

All interesting facts, but what is the point of the above post as it relates to HMGS conventions?

All interesting facts, but what is the point of the above post as it relates to HMGS conventions?

I think his point is history is on the decline in schools as they move to things like basket weaving and Justin Beiber pop culture electives instead of teaching about how this country was founded.

I was shocked to learn in my local high school American history wasn't taught until 12th grade anymore.