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"When is it Bigotry?" Topic


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©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
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Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian26 Jun 2017 3:50 p.m. PST

This issue has come up recently with some of our members, and so I wanted to take a moment to share with you what I told them.

According to Merriam-Webster, the definition of bigot is:

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

link

For purposes of our forums, I would further define that bigotry is treating people as if they all think or act the same way, based on their skin color, race or ethnicity.

If you find yourself saying "all (fill in the blank) are (fill in the blank)", you are probably committing bigotry if the group is defined by the way they were born. All Arabs, all Jews, all white people, that sort of thing.

Now, I'll admit there is a gray area when you get to social groups and cultures. Yes, it's possible for a culture to influence its members to act a certain way, and this is true even though its members did not choose the culture they were born into. So I will allow that while a generalization about "all black people" is fallacious on the face of it, a generalization about "all Haitians" might not be; similarly, a statement about "all Arabs" might be allowable if you specify that you are referring to culture and not race.

Now, some have argued to me that it is OK to express views about "all gay people" because being gay is a choice, not something you are born with. I would counter that most social scientists today (and most gay people) assert that being gay is not a choice; therefore, making blanket statements about "all gay people" will also be seen as violating forum rules on TMP.

Those are my thoughts. As always, I am open to your feedback.

Personal logo PrivateSnafu Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2017 4:09 p.m. PST

I feel oppressed by the IPA haters. I won't call you all it.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2017 4:11 p.m. PST

I feel oppressed by all the people who ignore my smiley faces. Whenever that happens I feel that my only recourse is to seek a safe place.

I think failure to acknowledge a smiley face is a form of micro aggression and should be punishable in some way. The bigots should be outed as hostile to smiley faces and should be boycotted by everyone.

Dan :)
PS. Of course, perception isn't always reality.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian26 Jun 2017 4:11 p.m. PST

International Phonetic Alphabet? evil grin

rustymusket Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2017 4:58 p.m. PST

There is an international phonetic alphabet? Mmmmmmm. That is interesting. So one could pronounce a word correctly even if one doesn't know what it means. OK.
Regarding bigotry, I don't know what I can say other than "remember what the Sargent says in the movie " Gettysburg" about not judging a race, just take each person one at a time. It is much easier being a bigot if you limit your social contacts. Once you start getting to know diverse people, you learn how much we are alike.

Ed Mohrmann Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2017 4:59 p.m. PST

So 'all smokers' would be non-bigotry, but 'all
mustachiod men' would be bigotry ?

And what about 'all rivet counters,' 'all fans of
Empire III' etc., etc.

Frederick Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2017 5:39 p.m. PST

Well, I have to agree that thinking that everyone of a certain group must be/think/do something seems a bit prejudicial

Then there is the Austin Powers view

YouTube link

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2017 6:04 p.m. PST

It is proper that for purposes of this forum, you limit yourself to bigotry based on race, because if you got rid of every wargamer who is "obstinately devoted to his own opinions or prejudices" I'm not sure you'd have anyone left.

Me? I'd be booted at least twice. If I wasn't canned for my opinion of grand tactical Napoleonics, I'd be expelled for my feelings about roster games. (My cold hatred of franchise games is entirely fact-based and rational, thank you.)

Irish Marine Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2017 6:15 p.m. PST

Ok I'll bite. Is there a "Gay Gene"? If not in my opinion they've made a choice. And what prompted this post to begin with.

whitejamest26 Jun 2017 7:01 p.m. PST

This seems very problematic to me.

I can't see that saying "all Arabs/ Haitians/ (whatever national or cultural group you want) share Y trait" would ever be justifiable.

It is not the fact that people are born into a racial group and do not have a say in it that makes the "All X are Y" statement obviously ridiculous. It's the fact that no generalization across that many individual human beings can possibly hold water (outside of biological or fundamental psychological traits). Whether you're talking about race or culture, you really don't know a group of millions of people that well.

Besides, the condescension involved in such a statement is something that doesn't seem all that conducive to a friendly respectful forum. I feel like we can do better than that.

Anyway that's my take on it.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian26 Jun 2017 7:10 p.m. PST

Is there a "Gay Gene"? If not in my opinion they've made a choice.

You are entitled to your opinion. I am simply saying that TMP will consider comments such as "all gays support (fill in political view)" to be against our bigotry policy.

And what prompted this post to begin with.

See my original post.

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2017 7:15 p.m. PST

Bangs head on desk…..

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian26 Jun 2017 7:18 p.m. PST

I can't see that saying "all Arabs/ Haitians/ (whatever national or cultural group you want) share Y trait" would ever be justifiable.

If you do a Google for "arabs make poor soldiers" you will find much discussion on this topic, especially regarding the influence of society and class structures.

KSmyth26 Jun 2017 7:38 p.m. PST

Private Snafu, I am an IPA lover, but I am puzzled there are so many haters of this delightful brew. Gimme all the hops . . .

Buck21526 Jun 2017 7:38 p.m. PST

I have always remembered this from an old issue of "Mad" magazine:
When a person of an ethnic group tells a joke to members of the same ethnic group about a member of a different ethnic group, he is known as a "wit". However, when the above mentioned ethnic member tells the same joke to a different ethnic group from him, he is known as a "bigot"..,

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian26 Jun 2017 7:41 p.m. PST

A lot of Jerry Lewis humor isn't funny any more…

charared Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2017 7:52 p.m. PST

Waddya mean "any more"?

Dschebe Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2017 8:43 p.m. PST

We all humans are strange people. But for a few exceptions.

wrgmr126 Jun 2017 9:37 p.m. PST

I'm with KSmyth, hop me up, love my IPA's!

Ok, so some members were upset about bigotry. The facings were not painted in the right color? My French are better than your British? Romans are the best? What really was the tea party about? My German infantry can defeat your Indian infantry on the western front? The Hurons really hated the Iroquois? Genghis Khan was a woose? Hitler was a stark raving homicidal maniac?

My toy soldiers are white, brown, black, Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, French, Austrian, German, British, Canadian, American, Indian, Liberals, Conservatives, tribal….guess what: they all die the same on the wargame table, especially with a die roll of 1!

Bill how many members do you have?
If those who are members cannot understand that this is a wargaming forum where some members are not politically correct, maybe they should find some other place to find out what color the 24 Prussian Reserve Infantry facings were? This is the world wide interweb, people will post all kinds CP. Deal with it.

Bunkermeister Supporting Member of TMP26 Jun 2017 9:57 p.m. PST

Too much navel gazing and not enough war gaming.
Mike Bunkermeister Creek
Bunker Talk blog

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP27 Jun 2017 12:47 a.m. PST

@Wrgmr1: "If those who are members cannot understand that this is a wargaming forum where some members are not politically correct, maybe they should find some other place to find out what color the 24 Prussian Reserve Infantry facings were? This is the world wide interweb, people will post all kinds CP. Deal with it."

Spot on.

Most people here probably understand and accept our wide diversity of opinions, so I'm still trying to figure out the purpose of this thread. Is it just for the few people who always feel compelled to surround themselves with clones, because they can't handle hearing opposing views?

Dan

nevinsrip Sponsoring Member of TMP27 Jun 2017 1:41 a.m. PST

Dan Exactly what type of diverse opinions are you looking for? Historical or wargames based diversity? Or something else.

I don't come here to hear about politics or religion or anything other than hobby related material. I honestly don't care what your opinion is on anything other than wargaming and it's related activities.
In fact, I come her to get away from all the world's ills.

If you wish to discuss other than hobbies, why not go to Fox News or CNN or any of 100 million blogs and sites that clog the internet.

I respect your right to express your views on the world.
I just don'r care to read them here.


To answer the original question….
It's bigotry when people don't agree with me.
See how easy that was?

Dn Jackson27 Jun 2017 2:12 a.m. PST

"all Arabs" might be allowable if you specify that you are referring to culture and not race."

Arab is a race?

"A lot of Jerry Lewis humor isn't funny any more…"

SACRALIGE!!!

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian27 Jun 2017 4:10 a.m. PST

I stand corrected:

"Arab" is a cultural and linguistic term. It refers to those who speak Arabic as their first language. Arabs are united by culture and by history. Arabs are not a race. Some have blue eyes and red hair; others are dark skinned; many are somewhere in between. Most Arabs are Muslims but there are also millions of Christian Arabs and thousands of Jewish Arabs, just as there are Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Americans.

link

Tom Molon Supporting Member of TMP27 Jun 2017 4:51 a.m. PST

I don't want to let any more worms out of the can, but wouldn't this definition:

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

apply directly to many members of either of our 2 Party system of politicians, especially as regards the opposing Party?

Legion 427 Jun 2017 5:44 a.m. PST

All my soldiers are plastic, metal or resin … and most importantly … are Toys … evil grin

My toy soldiers are white, brown, black, Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, French, Austrian, German, British, Canadian, American, Indian, Liberals, Conservatives, tribal….guess what: they all die the same on the wargame table, especially with a die roll of 1!
I even have green, grey, red, purple, etc. in my Toy soldier collection. Of course I do nothing but sci-fi these days … so … evil grin

Not that is matters, but based on some of the fluff, some of my toy soldiers pray to evil chaos gods … so …

picture
picture
picture

** Disclamer : Trying to keep it light … evil grin

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP27 Jun 2017 7:37 a.m. PST

You can do that yourself by stifling an editor.
Or as William F Buckley once said, "Cancel your own damn subscription!"

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian27 Jun 2017 8:02 a.m. PST

I see this as a pointless thread that goes nowhere and solves nothing.

As I said, since this came up as a result of moderating the forums recently, I thought it would be useful for a larger audience than just the few people I had to talk to.

…this would be a better site if the majority of non-gaming material were to be discontinued…

The readers of TMP have, over the years, consistently said that they want to be free to discuss multiple subjects. If you think it is time for a change, you can always submit a poll suggestion and the membership can vote on it (again).

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP27 Jun 2017 8:45 a.m. PST

And I'm sure Frothers and the other sites are just loving these non-gaming discussions here, and are laughing their heads off at TMP's expense.

Dan

Personal logo StoneMtnMinis Supporting Member of TMP27 Jun 2017 10:02 a.m. PST

To me this whole thread begs the perpetual question….What can go wrong here?

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP27 Jun 2017 10:20 a.m. PST

Hmm …

Is it bigotry to supposed that all ancient (pic your nationality) fought and reacted in specific ways, and were generally motivated by specific beliefs/goals?

Is it bigotry to say that modern (pic your nationality) fought and reacted in specific ways, and were generally motivated by specific beliefs/goals?

Either both are yes or both are no. So either army lists (and discussions about them) are bigoted or they aren't. Problem solved. Let's get back to minis and terrain now, please. :)

Dan

cloudcaptain27 Jun 2017 10:41 a.m. PST

Look let's just add some letters and make it bigfootry. There. A LOT more interesting.

picture

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian27 Jun 2017 10:55 a.m. PST

And I'm sure Frothers and the other sites are just loving these non-gaming discussions here…

Nobody cares what they think.

And it's not a "non-gaming" discussion, it is a discussion about the forum rules for TMP. If it bores you, you don't need to read it.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian27 Jun 2017 10:58 a.m. PST

As a business decision, how many advertisers and existing members are you willing to drive away or lose to keep those who bothered to vote satisfied?

As a business decision, why should I listen to a minority of TMP readers, when the majority have spoken?

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP27 Jun 2017 12:41 p.m. PST

Editor Bill: "If it bores you, you don't need to read it."

Are you kidding me? These threads are like watching a train wreck. The thought of the disastrous outcome sickens me, and yet i can't keep myself from watching it unfold.

Cloudcaptain,
Yes! Let's all do bigfootry!

Dan

Personal logo PrivateSnafu Supporting Member of TMP27 Jun 2017 12:42 p.m. PST

I doubt any poll has ever had the majority of TMP vote one way or the other. Perhaps of those who voted. That point was already made. What you think people want is not necessarily so.

Whatever, I'm still think the IPA haters are bigfoots!

Personal logo StoneMtnMinis Supporting Member of TMP27 Jun 2017 1:20 p.m. PST

Before this quagmire gets any deeper…I think everyone should just declare Victory, get out, and place their order for Stone Mountain Miniatures stuff. thumbs up

Nick Bowler27 Jun 2017 2:04 p.m. PST

+1 Mr Mtn :)

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian27 Jun 2017 2:12 p.m. PST

you can't run a business on the basis of polls

I think most corporations would disagree with you. grin

I doubt any poll has ever had the majority of TMP vote one way or the other. Perhaps of those who voted.

Don't put down the polls. The people who vote in those polls are the ones who are highly motivated to have a voice in how TMP is run. I don't see a workable alternative to obtain the viewpoint of TMP members – do you?

Ottoathome27 Jun 2017 2:13 p.m. PST

"Bigot" is what you brand the opinions of others you do not like, or to make yourself feel self-righteous because you are not one of them.

It usually also turns out to be quite general but not universally specific. I have a friend named Robert Grossman who to this day hates Germans because of the Holocoust. He was not in the holocaust and in fact was born here and lived here all his life, his father having come over in 1913 to avoid conscription in the Austro-Hungarian Army. He dislikes Germans intensely. He was my boss for fifteen years. He was the best boss I ever had and we were and are good friends. The incongruities of this with my name being Otto Schmidt and I having a bona-fide war criminal in the person of my uncle are obvious.

If you are looking for logic and continuity in human thought you are in the wrong space-time continuum.

We are free to think and act as we wish. Our thoughts are our own, only by our deeds can we be judged.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian27 Jun 2017 2:18 p.m. PST

As a business owner why should you listen to any readers who are in favor of business practices that are, in fact, harming your business directly and indirectly?

Are you sure that you are not just annoyed because the membership has rejected various ideas you have put forth regarding TMP?

As of today, advertisers are running hundreds of banner ads on TMP. What evidence do you have that TMP is being harmed?

Personal logo PrivateSnafu Supporting Member of TMP27 Jun 2017 2:26 p.m. PST

How about a quorum? Set the level you feel is appropriate. It will help move away from anecdotal evidence toward more fact based decision making.

Geez man lighten up. I'm not putting down the polls, even if my bias is well known. I only stated that it was unlikely that a majority supported a decision as you asserted, only that a majority of those who responded was possible.

The enemy is everywhere…

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian27 Jun 2017 2:30 p.m. PST

Run the business based on YOUR best judgment. Not theirs.

Of course, I run the business based on my best judgment. However, I have learned over the years the wisdom of listening to the TMP community – that is why I run polls, to survey the membership.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian27 Jun 2017 2:43 p.m. PST

Geez man lighten up. I'm not putting down the polls, even if my bias is well known. I only stated that it was unlikely that a majority supported a decision as you asserted, only that a majority of those who responded was possible.

Isn't that the same with elections, too? evil grin

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian27 Jun 2017 3:38 p.m. PST

Do you have secret access to information that I am not aware of, showing that TMP is being "destroyed"?

Has there been some major exodus of advertisers? If so, who and how many?

Are members leaving TMP in droves? If so, how many have gone? Do you have any numbers?

I think you are taking a few anecdotes and creating an unwarranted level of hysteria.

I believe that you mean well. I know that you are concerned for the future of TMP. I am just baffled at the level of crisis you are projecting.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian27 Jun 2017 8:07 p.m. PST

I'm presenting a viewpoint based on actual incidents, websites I've seen, discussions I've had with members and advertisers, blog sites I've seen.

Thank you for your concern about TMP.

Whether you intend to or not, you give the impression that I must accept your advice – lock, stock and barrel – or doom is at hand. In several cases, you want me to do things which I already know the TMP membership does not want. As far as I know, you have no experience in running this type of business, or have any experience with the technology.

In general, I like TMP the way it is. Yes, the bugs need to be fixed. But I don't see any reason to suddenly turn TMP into something else. I really believe that most people like TMP the way it is, that's why they are here.

Bunkermeister Supporting Member of TMP27 Jun 2017 11:09 p.m. PST

This is the type of thread that should not be on TMP, in my opinion. Dirty laundry should be kept private. Questions like this one should not be made public. This site should stay about the Army Men.

If Dear Editor feels the need to discuss these type of non-wargame related topics I have a suggestion.

Recruit a small group, no more than five people, who visit TMP and post daily. People like Terrement, Winston Smith, Tango and / or others. Not me, I am not high profile enough. Perhaps reward them with free membership months.

Then conduct a conference call with the group and discuss these issues on the phone. I agree it can be helpful for a leader to discuss issues with the troops at times.

But not all the troops, not all at once. This way Dear Editor can get feedback, but not clutter up TMP with the inner workings of the system.

Mike Bunkermeister Creek
https://bunkermeister.blogspot.com

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian28 Jun 2017 3:55 a.m. PST

Questions like this one should not be made public.

The original purpose of this discussion was to talk about forum moderation policies. It is absolutely appropriate to discuss this with the membership. Those who are not interested should simply not participate in the discussion.

deephorse28 Jun 2017 7:43 a.m. PST

Those are my thoughts. As always, I am open to your feedback

OK Bill, here's some feedback. Let's see how open you are to it.

You didn't choose a particularly good definition of bigot.

According to Merriam-Webster, the definition of bigot is:
a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

So if I am obstinately devoted to my opinion that the earth revolves around the sun am I a bigot? Of course not. If the views and opinions I hold are overwhelmingly accepted to be right or correct why should I have to accept that other opinions could be correct? I can accept that there might be other opinions on this subject, but clearly they will be wrong and I should be under no obligation to accept them as being reasonable, or indeed worth the slightest consideration.

And there is the word that your chosen definition misses, ‘reasonable'. The Cambridge English Dictionary defines bigot as;

a person who has strong, unreasonable beliefs and who does not like other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life:

Surely in order to be a bigot the obstinate holding of beliefs or opinions has to be qualified by the fact that those opinions are ‘unreasonable'?

For purposes of our forums, I would further define that bigotry is treating people as if they all think or act the same way, based on their skin color, race or ethnicity

Perhaps you should further define bigot, for the purposes of your forum, that any strong or obstinate view expressed here should pass the test of being ‘reasonable'. Now there's a whole new topic for you!

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian28 Jun 2017 8:39 a.m. PST

Being 'unreasonable' would certainly include 'one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance'

Whether the viewpoint is held 'strong'ly or 'obstinate'ly seems to have little to do with it, as I suppose bigotry can come in various degrees.

But, further to your point, anyone who believes that race or ethnicity defines a person in any way would be 'unreasonable', correct?

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