"BOXER REBELLION !!!" Topic

EVERYONE else releases "codes" --- BLUE MOON RELEASES ENTIRE RANGES !!!!
The upcoming Boxer range in 15/18mm will include dozens of figure codes, six entire unique legations, Chinese buildings, burned out ruins, extra wall sections, etc --- dozens of buildings!!
More sample pictures on the way and we are working on getting the list and codes finalized to be published!!

Regards
Russ Dunaway

Excellent news. I will try and be patient. Only try. No real promises.

👍

It has taken several years though ;)

Well, time to get into a new range. Will you have these, at least samples, at historicon?

Matthew

This is great news for me and I can't wait to see the new line at Historicon!!!

Actually we did not start the Boxer Rebellion until about four months ago-- no where near "two years." Prior to that we completed the entire ECW range not including the Irish and Scotts who will eventually be coming along.
The range will be available at Historicon.

Regards
Russ Dunaway

Great news would be the re-release of the OG 25mm legation buildings.

The building re-releses would be good. I think the would work for 18mm skirmish.

I'll be taking a look at these next month at historicon.

Matthew

Looking forward to the list and codes, I've already spent about $60 USD on Ospreys…

Russ, I believe the comment about taking years refers to your original inquiries here on TMP about what we would like to see in a Boxer range being confused with actually working at making the range a reality.

And I believe you spent a couple of years between inquiry and announcements of imminent arrival of the range focused in other areas for economically valid reasons which pushed this out a bit.

Whatever the realities, I'm sure we're all glad to see it arriving and I hope it sells like crazy.

Oh, and for all of us, how often do manufacturers poll our opinion and then – from all appearances – deliver so thoroughly on what we requested? (And, no, that doesn't mean all of us get all of what we want. But, heck, just what we've seen so far surpasses any Boxer range I'm aware of – by large measures.)

Of course, I'm going to get MY request for the Sand Pebbles! Right? : )

Well, that would be nice, but I think I'll get more than I could have hoped for.

So, I say Cheers for Russ, Old Glory, and Blue Moon.

And I'm still trying to be patient. Trying.

I was only jesting about the years……I've got loads of projects I've said I'll do…and years on many haven't been started yet1!

No offense taken by any thing. Just wanted to point out that we had actually just began the whole process in the last few months. Don't worry, as I am sure there will be a whole slew of boxer Rebellion figures from other sources in the coming years.

Regards
Russ Dunaway

Speaking of this to someone recently, he was wondering if there was yet another scandal in sports or if I was joking about knickers.

Whole ranges? I'm still waiting on many of the WWI "codes" promised years ago.

The missing codes from the ww1, that you have mentioned several times are things such as wounded and stretcher bearers,etc -- not really essential for a game -- none the less, I am sure we will eventually get back to that range.
It seem you choose to look at WW1 only, as that is YOUR interest -- I understand that-- forgetting all the other ranges from ancients to ww2, the countless codes that have been released. ,including codes other people are waiting for -- still have not done the British chariots for the ancient gamer and it is a must have – in fact I must get to that now that I reminded myself?
After 30 years in business I am very proud of OG and our ability to complete reasonably complete ranges -- at reasonable prices. now I am fully aware that there will never be a "complete range" in some peoples eyes as they choose to look at what is not there as opposed to what is there?
Thank you for your oponions.

Regards
Russ Dunaway

Blue Moon in the last year's have released:
Caesars gallic war
Dacian wars
Great Northern wars
Malburians
English cival war
Pirates and ships
7 years war
FIW including buildings, block house, stockade forts
AWI
Mad Anthony Wayne
Napoleonics
War of 1812
Texas Revolution including entire Alamo fortress
Mexican American war
ACW
Plains war
Cowboys and entire towns
Various COLONIAL WARS
French foreign legion, with fort Zindernuf
Horror with entire castle and buildings
Deep dark Africa -- need the critters still.
Gangsters, G men, POLICE, CIVILIANS and entire Chicago town
Three musketeers
WW1
Aliens armies for galactic war1

All of these ranges have more then enough to play and run a game -- I am sure there will be " missing" pieces -- although I consider them complete -- I am sure there are things that can be added and in some cases eventually will be.
Recently we just added codes to the Zulu wars and the Mad Anthony Wayne ranges Obviously the hottest sellers get the most attention ??

The boxer range will include dozens of figure codes, as well as buildings and legations -- enough to have a great game -- will it have everything that there was, I highly doubt it.

This will be followed by another whole new period later in the year along with the continuing additions to the existing ranges --- 8 codes of Cossacks, Old Guard for Nappies as well as other things soon????

Regards
Russ Dunaway

So OG lists codes as forthcoming when a range is new but leaves those codes undone for _years_ while starting other line after other line and I'm supposed to think that's fine? Moreover, _I'm_ at fault for trying to "harm" you by simply pointing out the truth? (This was a claim made via private message.) That is ridiculous as well as disingenuous. _You_ announced the forthcoming codes in the WWI range when the range was new. I'm not asking for "new" codes that weren't supposed to be in the pipeline from the get-go; I'm asking for you to honor the commitment you _freely_ made when first starting the WWI range. I bought packs in that range in good faith with the expectation that OG/Blue Moon would keep its word with respect to the rest of the range. But instead of keeping its word with respect to existing ranges, OG/BM has chosen to start numerous new ranges without regard to existing commitments. And you consider that something about which you should be proud? I guess you think it's unfair that I ask you to honor your commitments. As far as I'm concerned, you took money from me for the WWI codes I bought on false pretenses. It certainly seems to me that the claim you make at the start of this thread--to wit, that OG releases "complete ranges," not just individual "codes"--simply isn't true.
Moreover, you say that I'm only interested in the WWI range. But I have a strong interest in a number of ranges. Specifically, I'm interested in the Old West, Plains Wars, Horror, Texas War of Independence and the up-coming Boxer Rebellion ranges. But my experience with the WWI range makes me very reluctant to invest further in any OG/BM ranges. Moreover, before the experience with the WWI range, as an original member of the OG Army, I purchased all of the miniatures in the 28mm Old West, 28mm Gangland, 28mm Things That Go Bump in the Night ranges from BM as well as more than half the packs in the Westwind Gothic Horror and Cowboys Wars ranges from OG. So you're simply mistaken that I'm only interested in the WWI range. In short, I've bought extensively from a wide variety of OG/BM ranges and was a good, loyal customer. But I've been alienated from you not just because of the experience with the WWI range but even more by your cavalier dismissal of my concerns.
Regards,
Doug Blount

Your choice to see it as you wish --seems you have been happy with the product and wish to focus on the few packs that have not been released. As far as Me being "disingenuous" --well sir, you do not know me,nor my reasons or character that guides my decisions --I consider that an insult. You point to one range, that admittly is tardy for completion, while I point to many ranges that are complete in my opinion -- Good luck in the future and please send me no more "private" message if you have not the character to keep them "private!!" Good luck in your future endeavors.
regards
Russ Dunaway

Please respond to the substance of my arguments. So far, nothing you've said is relevant to the issue at hand. Moreover, I didn't call _you_ disingenuous, I called your statement disingenuous. If you can't appreciate the distinction between an agent and the agent's action, then that is another problem. (By the way, I have some expertise in Action Theory--which concerns the distinction between a mere event and an action--and would be happy to recommend reading that would help here.) How, for instance, am I mistaken to believe you've taken money from me for WWI codes under false pretenses? That is the heart of my concern; and _nothing_ you've said addresses that claim.
Regards,
Doug Blount

As an unabashed fan of Old Glory and Blue Moon and one who made many requests that have since been fulfilled – but by no means all of them – I am a bit baffled by Blount's beating so hard on this point.

I am only a customer but I can attest to the quality of Russ' character – and some of his key personnel. They've always been courteous and professional and quite generous with me – and I know with others – when I approached them about supporting a mega convention game I ran a few years ago.

I certainly understand wanting certain figures for personal reasons and perhaps a level of frustration at not having them. But there are also hard business realities and I'm pretty sure WWI isn't the biggest seller in anyone's range (unless that is there only or main range, I suppose). Without the centennial anniversary we are moving through, I greatly doubt there would have been much action on this period. It is – despite being such a massive war – very much a niche period. And my sole interest in the war is a niche within a niche. I'd love to see German East Africa catered to by Blue Moon – or someone in 15 mm (comprehensively in the sense that I can get "enough" to run a game). But I also understand a handful of gamers on the planet with the same desire doesn't necessarily make it a financially viable alternative. But I still hope.

By my guess, I'd bet there are dozens of packs in the multitude of Blue Moon 15 ranges that exist solely to satisfy customer demand/requests with little thought to those packs paying for themselves. I expect the mainstay packs are meant to pay for the ranges.

And if I'm right, then that, too, speaks positive volumes to the character of Russ and his crew.

Blount, of course you are entitled to your opinions and to express your views, but the public manner in which you've done so may be a bit beyond the pale of propriety. I think he did address the substance when he said he believes the missing codes will get done – eventually. Posting the expected codes is not a contract or a promise but rather a goal being strived for. I know of no other manufacturer who has put forth such ambitious goals and then achieved them. Peter Pig has been very prolific but they don't pre-announce that I'm aware of. But despite their many ranges and many packs, they are far behind Blue Moon except in World War II where I think they have a commanding lead. But I wouldn't be surprised to see Russ and Blue Moon close that gap. Eventually.

So, if WWI hasn't been a particular good seller – no matter how much you may have bought – the incentive to produce more product for the range can't be high. And your approach probably pushes that enthusiasm lower. So, perhaps consider that your approach may actually back fire on you. Hope not. Just sayin'.

Oh, and the only way false pretense can exist is if money was taken for codes that did not exist and there was never any plan for the code to exist. I suspect – and I know I could be wrong – that you are referring to the codes you did pay for and did get but hoped for additional codes that have yet to be released. Again, I understand the frustration. But that doesn't constitute false pretense.

I, personally, am a HUGE fan of a well-decorated table and things like wounded and stretcher bearers but such things, as Russ states, don't prevent most games, maybe a very specific scenario or two but a resourceful gamer can almost always find a way. There is conversion and there are other places to source figures unless you are a purist. I happily 'borrow' figures from other ranges to 'make-do' until something better comes along. Primary case in point is an Old West hearse. I'd love to see a 15 mm version of the Blue Moon 28 mm horse drawn hearse, I'd snap one up pronto. Meantime, I'm assembling one from other sources via conversion. Why not be content to do the same – until such time as you get what you want? If you do.

Oh dear…that god a bit ugly very quickly…weird. I took your comment about releasing whole ranges as an enthusiastic bit of promotion of what looks a great range, rather than some legally binding statement!
I would like to apologise again if my comment about taking several years has caused any of this. It was meat to be a mildly humorous comment based on the comments over the last few years about a possible boxer range coming out, and your proud comment about whole ranges rather than just a few codes. I've bought next to no blue moon figures but have always admired the ranges that you do. I have mainly 15mm figures so shy away from the 18mm unless they are something I really want. Money is another limiting factor. If I had more I would buy a huge lot of your buildings as they are excellent as well as all the cowboy range for use in ACW towns etc.
Concerning completeness as far as I know nobody else has ever brought out 15mm arabs with heavy machine guns and I snapped them up for the Rif wars!

I am looking forward to the boxer range. Sadly I've used other manufacturers to fill in a lot of what I want, but will be adding to that collection, especially if you have some Imperial troops in the mix.
I'm not sure what you meant by

Don't worry, as I am sure there will be a whole slew of boxer Rebellion figures from other sources in the coming years.

EMW: If codes are listed as forthcoming when a range is initially released, it may not constitute a legally binding contract; of course, that's right. But there's a moral concern that deserves attention. If the codes are listed as forthcoming when the range is released, it creates a reasonable expectation on the part of the customer that those codes will indeed see the light of day; and that encourages the customer to buy what's already available. If that weren't the case, why list codes as forthcoming in the first place? Listing them as forthcoming, in other words, is a way of encouraging sales. But if you then fail to follow through on the forthcoming items, those sales were achieved under false pretenses. That doesn't mean they were achieved dishonestly; the original listing of the forthcoming codes may well have been made in good faith--and I don't doubt that is the case here--but even if they were made in good faith, if the codes don't get produced, the sales were achieved under false pretenses. To reiterate, "false" doesn't necessarily mean "dishonest."
I'd like to make a couple of other points.
First, I regret that the discussion turned (as badwargamer says) "ugly." Russ may be a good man--I don't for a minute dispute that--but his response to my concern was cavalier and dismissive. In fact, he seemed to me--whether intentionally or unintentionally (and I'm quite prepared to accept it as unintentional)--to be misrepresenting my concern. As a matter of fact, I'm not all that interested at this point in seeing the missing codes produced as I've long since moved on to other projects. This isn't about my trying to get the WWI codes finished; it is, rather, about a manufacturer keeping commitments made to its customers. If I had more confidence in OG/BM, there are--as I've already indicated--no less than half a dozen ranges that would interest me enough to take the plunge.
Second, I don't dispute the quality of OG/BM's miniatures. Far from it, I think they are outstanding. When Russ points out that my purchase record indicates satisfaction (he uses the word "happy," which is accurate), however, that is irrelevant to my concern. In fact, if OG/BM's miniatures weren't first-rate, I wouldn't be nearly as frustrated.
Third, I think Russ has handled my concern rather poorly. (I won't address whether I've handled it well; I realize some--perhaps most--will think that I have not; I disagree, but I'm certainly not infallible.) FWIW, here's what I think he should have done (or, at least, what I would have found to be an adequate response): 1. Rather than go into a mixture of defense and attack modes, simply own that OG/BM has failed to keep its commitment with respect to at least that one range. 2. Explain why that failure has taken place. (I suspect--though I certainly don't know--that it has to do with market factors, which I would certainly understand; that might be disappointing, but it would be justifiable; no reasonable person would think that commitments must be fulfilled if doing so means the collapse of the company. But it may be that other factors were involved--such as, say, the unexpected unavailability of the sculptors who'd agreed to sculpt the range.) 3. Either explain what will be done to rectify the situation (such as, say, a reasonable timetable for release of the codes) or simply tell customers that the "forthcoming" codes will not in fact see the light of day (which would be disappointing but--assuming a reasonable explanation [see 2 above] has been given--acceptable and understandable). 4. If either the codes will not see the light of day or they will not do so in a reasonable time period, then remove the listings from the BM website.
Badwargamer: I raised my concern weeks ago. More gently, but received no response from Russ. The concern wasn't occasioned by your comments. Please feel no responsibility here.

It is a business. It needs to make money, and not just to pay the taxes.

So is something does not sell so well, or if marketing ( and competitors doing the less rewarding subjects) says so, don't persevere into a lukewarm result.

Some of the future release might work as marketing device to see how many are interested. Producing minis is an investment.
We lucky ( few) are on the receiving end.

He does release a lot, and yes sometimes, it makes sense to wait to see further and be able to use the stuff.
For ex I postponed the French 7yw/was as well they have no enemy. Just brits won't do. Still have plenty to paint and play with.

As an old veteran, I never buy now something that cannot be used, if I plan to have them done soon. Used means finished from same brand or mixed with others.
It just has been the case for the last 30 years with any miniature company. OG/ BM bigger ( now!) than most, just can get way more out than most in one or a few salvoes. Thank you Russ for it ( and more;).

Soooo…back on subject, any word of when the ranges' initial codes will be out?