"Missing armament info for Santissima Trinidad, Sta Ana, Rayo" Topic

In case this late post was overlooked in Armand's original Spanish Navy thread …..

Re the missing obus and carronade armament data for Sta Trinidad, Rayo and Santa Ana, here is some armament data that a Spanish friend of mine succeeded in locating in Spanish archives some years ago:

Santissima Trinidad
16 x 24lbr obus
4 x 4lbr obus

Santa Ana
10 x 48lbr obus
2 x 32lbr obus
6 x 24lbr obus
4 x 4lbr obus

Rayo
4 x 4lbr obus
4 x 28lbr carronade

B

Santissima Trinidad link

Santa Ana link

Rayo link

Generally consistent data (except that I cited the 4lbrs as obus instead of pedrero – my bad).

I note that ThreeDecks cites a total of 52 guns carried on Santissima Trinidad's lower gundeck. I'd be interested to know how all those guns could be simultaneously worked; she only had 17 lower deck gunports (16 broadside + 1 chase).

I just checked some data I had on hand from John Tredrea regarding the armament of S Trinidad @ Trafalgar -

1805:
LD 34-36
MD 34-24
UD 34-18
WD 18-8 6-4 10-(24)

It is unfortunately not referenced/footnoted. But it does make more sense to me from a gun-handling point of view.

B

John's data matches with that stated in Peter Goodwin's The Ships of Trafalgar published in 2005. This gives both the armaments with which the ships were originally fitted out and the armaments they carried at Trafalgar, which are often significantly different.

Peter was keeper of HMS Victory at the time, very approachable and his work very thorough.

It was Peter who pointed out to me the impracticality of a simultaneous broadside, the combined recoil stresses of several tons per gun would have caused irreparable structural damage to the ship.

In the case of the Spanish Ships, he references 'Modelos de Arsenal del Museo Naval, Madrid' as his source, supplemented on occasion by Lyon's 'The Sailing Navy List' (if the ship was captured and surveyed) and Harbron's 'Trafalgar and the Spanish Navy'.

Best wishes,

Mark Barker
The Inshore Squadron

Hi Mark –
The structural issue was something that I did not take into account, but I would absolutely accept its practical sense.

Sidenote on the weird little factoids that emerge when one spends too much time studying obscure historical events (I have turned the following into a scenario for HCon). When LaTouche-Treville sortied out of Toulon in June 1804 and was offered battle by Nelson, three of the five ships making up the inshore squadron under Nelson's command were ex-French captures.

Note – actually, this might also make an interesting micro-campaign.

B

If that is your game on Saturday afternoon, then I'm registered for it. Looking forward to it.

Jim

That's the one, Colonel. Bring some friends.

B

Mark Campbell put this scenario in his Close Action boardgame for Clash of Arms – Latouche-Treville's Chance.

Might save you some time regarding ship positions, wind direction etc.

8 French SOLs vs 5 British (including Victory) makes for a stiff fight …

Mark Barker

Thanks for that, Mark. MC and I are in fact old-time gaming friends – very interesting guy and a dedicated historical researcher (IIRC, he studied under Sumida for a time at the University of Maryland).

Anyhoo ….. my probably non-historical Toulon scenario set-up has been dictated by the need to create a reasonably fast entry into battle. It is what convention-gamers here in the States seem to prefer and, given the relatively short time available to bring a convention game through to a reasonable conclusion, I can understand why they feel that way. For a long time AoS games at the HMGS conventions were typically gigantic affairs (I've seen up to 100+ ships on 30ft tables – no lie). Great initial spectacle to be sure, but too many of these games saw the opposing vans magnetically drawn to one another and furiously engaged while the majority of players in the unengaged center and rear squadrons literally sat drumming their fingers on the table for hours. Not a good formula IMO.

So ….. the fictitious rationale for my Toulon scenario = the overnight current and pre-dawn land breeze has drifted the French squadron too far to the SE and close to the British. A lengthy early morning calm finds both forces in disorder on converging but inconvenient headings. The game starts with the rising of a late morning sea breeze out of the SE which promises to help get the French back to port, but also gives Nelson a good opportunity to intercept. A great deal will depend (a) upon who forms up from his disorder quickest and (b) to what degree the headings selected accommodate the formations chosen.

I like to provoke the commanders to think about approaches and maneuvering rather than just presenting another bottled parallel lines point-blank "cram and slam" fest.

You're right about a "stiff fight". The Brits will need to be careful if they want to do well. The French win if they just get everyone home. I think it will be an interesting game.

B

That's good. He invited me for a CA game and a meal when I visited Washington on a 'once in a decade' business trip last year. Great couple of evenings …

Mark

Well, Mark. Should you ever find yourself in the area of Greenville SC, I also would be most pleased to extend some "Southern Hospitality".

B