"Char B in German Service " Topic

"The mistake of choosing a "battle tank" (Char de bataille) as a main tank became obvious during the campaign in France in May-June of 1940. The French tank industry did not manage to shift its gears for war. As a result, by the time the German invasion began, the availability of Char B1 bis tanks was far from what was planned. In addition, some French tanks were lost to either technical problems or because of poor supplies of fuel and ammunition. Many of them fell into German hands. How did the German army use the Char B1 and vehicles on its chassis?…."
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Amicalement
Armand

Thank you Tango! Very informative.

I think the article's a little harsh, though. Saying the Char B wasn't right for a panzer division is true, but it's also true that a soccer ball is poorly suited for basketball. French tanks weren't built for German operational concepts. As for the mechanical problems, see the early Panthers.

It was the right tank for the 1940 division blinde, and it they'd made them a little earlier, they might have gotten past the teething troubles. There are, have been and will be poorly-designed tanks, but I wouldn't count the Char B among them.

The WWII Germans were great at reusing, repurposing, etc. many captured Allied vehicles. It was almost a standard …

Surprisingly no mention of the Char Bs on Jersey that I could see. Otherwise quite comprehensive.

New Jersey ?!?!?!? If an invasion of NJ, USA occurred. The next morning all the enemies' vehicles would be up on blocks missing their wheels and radios ! And in NYC the same would happen as well !

Oh dear.

They did mention sending Chars to the Channel Islands.

A votre service mon ami!. (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

… and it they'd made them a little earlier, they might have gotten past the teething troubles.

The tank had been in continuous development since 1921, and in the first prototypes in the form of the Char B1 were produced in 1934. How much earlier could they possibly have made them to have a tank that was at all current in 1940?

There are, have been and will be poorly-designed tanks, but I wouldn't count the Char B among them.

As with most industrial powers in the inter-war period, the French could not figure out what they wanted from a tank.

De Gaulle (and no, I'm not a CdG fan) was the closest to getting it right at that time. He lobbied for more of the Renault D2s, a tank that typified the "Char de Maneuvre" thinking rather than the "Char de Battaille" concepts encompassed in the Char B. The D2 used the same gun, had decent protection (somewhat less than the Char B), had notably better mobility, and cost something like 1/3rd what the Char B cost.

By the time of WW2, the French had put together their concept of a tank division in the form of the DCRs (Division Cuirassee de Reserve -- Central Reserve Armored Divisions). They were breakthrough divisions without the levels of mech infantry and mobile artillery needed for independent operations, equipped with Char Bs that lacked any realistic level of operational mobility. Their envisioned role was to be applied to major offensives in support of infantry divisions in assaulting linear defenses. They never saw service in this role, and were easily outmaneuvered when applied in the type of fluid warfare that burst upon the French in 1940.

We refer to them today as French armored divisions, but they were a totally different concept from the Panzer Divisions of that time, or U.S. Armored Divisions of 1942 and beyond, and closer in concept to the British Tank Brigades than to the British Armoured Divisions.

To say the Char B was not a poorly designed tank may be true in some sense, but it was a tank designed to an obsolete concept of warfare that had little or no operational utility on a 1940 battlefield.

But they're fun on a game table.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Forgive my ignorance. Aside from the 35T and 38T were there any foreign designed tanks that were used by Panzer forces on a large scale basis?

I know a number of French vehicles were converted to SPFA, etc. by the Germans. Like this "Lorraine" link And IIRC they used the Panhard Armored car stock. How many … not really sure ? As they did some Italian M13/40s and Semovettes …

Surprisingly a number of Italian tanks were used by the Germans, just depends on what you mean by large scale. Few examples. The Germans captured some 92 M15/42s. According to Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two, Revised Edition "The Pz Kpfw M15/42 were issued to three Heeres Panzer Detachments and to the Volunteer Cavalry Division of the 22 SS 'Maria Theresa' which was formed with Hungarian volunteers in April 1944. By 30 Decemberl 1944, there were still 68 Italian M13/40, M14/41, and M15/42 still in service with the German forces."

Another example from the same source there were a number of Semovente M42 75/18s used by the Germans. "A total of 294 StuG M42 were issued to German units in 1943 and 1944. On 31 December 1943, 191 were in service with six infantry divisions, two Panzer divisions, three panzergrenadier divisions and one Jager division, of Army Groups C and F, in Italy and the Balkans. By 30 December 1944, despite new deliveries, that number had been reduced to 93 as a result of battle losses."

That is interesting intel. I know I've seen pics and even models of some Italian vehicles with German insignia. I think I've even seen Germans using the Sahariana Patrol Truck link used in the North African Campaign. By the Italians patrolling against the SAS and LRDG, etc.

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The Germans used in N:E frontier vs British the best availalble Italian tank..the P40..if i remenber well the unit that participated in this probably last German/Allied armoured clash in Italy was the Kartjjager..an auxiliary SS unit.

Thanks for the link 11th ACR. As well as the photo ITALWARS …

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Another great link ! I love colored line drawings like that, as well as actual photos.