"Three Rifles That Could Replace the Army's M4A1 Carbine" Topic

"In new comments to the Senate Armed Services Committee, U.S. Army Chief of Staff Mark Milleyhas said the Army is "taking a hard look" at a new German assault rifle and other designs to replace its existing weapons.

The M4A1 carbine is currently issued to U.S. Army combat troops worldwide. A descendant of the original M16 rifle, the M4A1 has a 14.5" barrel, is chambered for the 5.56-millimeter round, and weighs approximately nine pounds when fully equipped with optics, lasers, foregrips, and other attachments. There are concerns in Congress, however, that the M4A1 could not penetrate modern Russian body armor, which is what prompted Milley's comment…"
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Well nothing really penetrates modern body armor. It's a freaking armored metal plate. It stops 7.62mm too.

Just getting a different rifle won't change anything. If the want to penetrate it, they need an effective powerful armor piecing bullet.

H&K already has a round that penetrates titanium plate reinforced body armour out to a couple of hundred yards chambered in the MP7(nee PDW) but is ~4.8mm.

My money would be on something M4-ish, new barrel and round telescoped to fit the existing magazine well. Interim would be a discarding sabot projectile (have been available since at least the '90's in sporting rounds). Or both.

H&k's 4.6mm and FN's 5.7mm are much less powerful than the media buzz would make you believe.

The energy of the 5.56mm at 600 yards is still markedly greater than the energy of both bullets at the muzzle.

They are PDW rounds, designed to give non-combat personnel a means to defend themselves that is more effective than a pistol, but much easier to carry all day than an M4 or any other carbine type.

They are pistol caliber rounds and not rifle rounds like the 5.56mm, if you would go up against somebody with a MP7 at range the one with the rifle will outgun you every time.

They are a pistol round, necked and fitted with a small, spitzer bullet made from hard materials. Compare to the 7.63mm Mauser, the 7.62 Tokarev, the .357 Sig and the brand new 7.5 BRNO they are all pistol rounds, but the neck means more energy is focussed to push harder giving them higher velocity and energy.

Here is a 5.7mm next to a 5.56mm

And the 4.8 and the 5.7 next to a 30 carbine, the orignal PDW round.

I've said it in a previous comment that the US army has a very long list of projects started almost immediately after the introduction of the M16, many promised to completely revolutionize modern warfare, but five decades later, we're still using the same platform and unless somebody comes up with a real game changer future projects will just be reworked M16/5.56mm variants.

Gunfreak, Eugene Stoner came up with a HEAT warhead that fitted in a shotgun shell it could go through a solid inch of steel and still make a nice hole on whatever was behind the steel plate.

Cool! But at what distance?

Good pics !

that the M4A1 could not penetrate modern Russian body armor

As with anything … Measure … Counter Measure … Counter Counter Measure … etc.

The defense establishment goes through these conniptions every few years with the same results: whatever it is costs more, doesn't perform as advertised until modified at least twice, and countermeasures will be developed before the second modification, which will require either a third modification or an entire new whatever.

FWIW, contrary to a statement in the article, the AR-15 was developed from the AR-10, not vice-versa.

LT

Now, this ISN'T shirley posting. I'm john, her husband.

I am a vet. I served with the 173rd in Afghanistan. I had my M4 stop working on me three times, once where it nearly cost me my life. The rifle just does'nt stand up to prolonged shooting. Its a fine patrol rifle, and for the most part it does what it needs to do. But get into a long-ish gunfight, and all bets are off.

I own 2 rifles. A Molot VEPR AK/RPK74. And a RedJacket RS-KP AK74. Both in 5.45x39. Why? Because AK pattern rifles ALWAYS WORK.

The animals we encountered where I was(Kunar prov.) mostly used AK74'S(we did'nt find many 7.62x39 AK's). The 5.45x39 round is very nasty, and inflicts a horrible wound. Much worse then the our 5.56 round.

Very good information. And thank you for your service. You may want to add your knowledge and experience on this thread too – TMP link

Thank you again …

Just attended a fascinating presentation on smallarms at the Defence Academy (one of the few places in the world that offer MSc courses in small arms design). The importance of linking your weapon choice with doctrine, combat environment and levels of training were all mentioned as key factors in the selection of an army;s rifle. M4, SA80, AK47 and (I think) G36 used as examples. M4 was the example of a weapon that didn't really fit any of those criteria.

That is interesting David. I'd be interesting in seeing what the US goes to for it's standard rifle. If and when it does … The M16 and all it's evolved versions have been around for quite some time in most cases.