"Could a Single Marine Unit Destroy the Roman Empire?" Topic

"James Erwin was browsing Reddit on his lunch break when a thread piqued his interest. A user called The_Quiet_Earth had posed the question: "Could I destroy the entire Roman Empire during the reign of Augustus if I traveled back in time with a modern U.S. Marine infantry battalion or MEU?"

The question struck a chord with the 37-year-old Erwin, a technical writer from Des Moines, Iowa, who happened to be finishing a book called The Encyclopedia of U.S. Military Actions (Through Facts on File). Erwin tells PM that he wasn't impressed by other users' early attempts to answer this question, and so, posting under the username Prufrock451, he came up with his own response. Erwin wrote a 350-word short story chronicling the fictitious 35th Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU), which suddenly disappears from modern-day Kabul and reappears on the Tiber River in 23 B.C. Erwin posted the piece, finished his meal, and went back to work…"
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Amicalement
Armand

Wouldn't they run out of ammo at some point? I know the Marines are tough and all but how well would they do against Legionarys' with sword, pilum and shield once the Marines were down to their bayonets?

You really don't want to know how much ammo a modern military unit carries.

My friend's Stryker unit usually had guys ammo hogging 600 rounds of 5.56mm ammo per man, plus a 200rd box of ammo for the MG, plus another 6000 rounds of 5.56mm back in the truck.

Sure, some guys (like my friend, since he was the platoon leader) didn't go for more than about 300 rounds and instead packed extra batteries for radios and stuff, but that would only drag the average 5.56mm loadout down to about 450-500 rounds per man.

And this doesn't count the ammo stored back at the FOB.

Logistics and language are the key. What are they going to eat, use for ammo and fuel? I reckon they could take control of a city.

Assuming that the gator freighters came with them, they'd have at least 30 days of food stores. Diesel engines can run on biodiesel with no changes to the engine other than a new fuel filter after about a week due to the biodiesel cleaning all the gunk out of the fuel system. And biodiesel is stupidly easy to make. You need plant oil (this is Italy, so olive oil), 100% ethanol with absolutely NO water in it, and some dessicant that you will re-use to keep water out of the process.

You'd better believe that the Sailors and/or Marines know how to brew and distill alcohol, and will have enough parts and materials lying around to be able to make a biodiesel reaction system.

Yeah a city at best.

So you conquer Baghdad. You decide to head out to Rome. The minute you leave the Romans are back in charge in Baghdad. They bring in a new legion and it's like you were never there.

Marines carry a lot of ammo but their guns shoot off an awful lot too.

Sure you can brew biofuel. But now you're in one place gathering olive oil and ethanol. That takes time.

The Romans, I'm guessing, will figure out they can simply avoid you. The Legions run and instead they go guerilla.

If a unit suddenly was transported back in time without warning, they could last a while, but when they run out of consumables, their ability is much diminished.

Another option I saw a few years back is the following proposition :

We discover a way to make a one-way trip back in time, it creates a divergent timeline that doesn't affect our own history and prevents it looking as if somebody dropped a piano on it.

With preparation, ample supplies, and all the necessary basic equipment you could send back a military force with proper support, specialists and an extensive database of manuals, books and everything you need to set up a power base.

The next step would be to secure all the necessary resources, places like Romania are probably a good bet since you could get a small scale oil operation going in a matter of months.

Got a problem with the neighbors ? break out chemical warfare, riddling people with bullets is one thing, stuff that looks like a divine plague is even more morale-breaking.

Of course the ultimate goal is to ally yourself with the locals to increase your workforce. It may be important to compartmentalize their work process so that they can't figure out what you're doing or simply allocate them tasks that are of no short term benefit to them. If you do manage to make them into reliable allies you could equip them with muskets, keeping the formula of gunpowder a close secret.

You'll need simple, easy to repair equipment, but also every modern advantage like air power, there is currently a wide range of simple, rugged COIN aircraft, like the Bronco, Pucara or Super Tucano available, they are your eyes and ears and your ability to drop bombs on anyone who looks sideways at you.

Ditto for vehicles, cheap, lightly armoured vehicles with an MG as your mainstay and a number of supplementary vehicles with guns, mortars etc.

Of course to save on fuel, you'll have to arrange for horses, mules and other animals, better bring along a veterinary unit with a ton of frozen sperm from modern animals because the local stock might not be up to spec. Large modern mules would be very useful to trade.

Boats will also become vital, barges can move large amounts of supply more effectively than any other means.

The whole operation will require a careful management of your resources, with priority being given to build and expand facilities that will allow you to produce all your own equipment.

How do you fight a Roman Legion ?

With the least amount of force, set up some snipers with .338 and .50 rifles, let them pick out the guys in the fancy armour, once the legion is starting to feel the pressure, drop a few airburst mortar rounds. If they still want to fight make sure your defensive perimeter has a hidden layer of razorwire (one of the first things you'll need to be able to crank out by the mile), if you feel generous, drop some cheap mines among the wire. While they are stuck on the wire trying to figure out what to do, hit the stereo and start to play your favorite selection of Death Metal. Once the Romans are utterly unnerved, bombard their camp and watch them start to scatter.

The trick is to keep them guessing, once they think they have you figured out break out the airforce or let them get close and use napalm or flamethrowers.

There is nothing more frustrating for a Roman army than to spend a week building a magnificent bridge only to blow it up with a few well aimed shells.

Don't try to kill the legions, destroy their camps, their supplies or threaten to block their way out. Mines dropped ahead of a fleeing army is absolutely hilarious.

Romans "go guerilla"? Go on.

The Marines would offer their services to the highest bidder, after a "demonstration" of their power and willingness. "The Lost Legion" if it were instead a Marine unit, would conserve its firepower for the optimum opportunity. With it backing "the emperor", no matter who he was, the empire would be controlled in a manner that would push history into a completely new direction.

If the paymasters decided to rid themselves of these scary boys and their noisy missile weapons, it would result in a betrayal, because that would be the only way to take them out short of a very, very costly frontal assault massacre………

Not even a chance!

Without looking at the link, several years ago, the short story was submitted to Warner Brothers, who bought rights for a screen play and the author was supposed to be working on it. It was called "Rome, Sweet Rome". Initially, project was supposed to run 2-3 years until release. Asked a friend whose sister works for Warner and it never materialized. Would have made a great movie.

Meds are the key all the stuff 21st century soldiers are immune to and all the modern meds they have. May not work on all the diease around before it transformed into its modern forms, On the other hand the leave would be great.

No. Next question.

Easily, if they deployed the sharks fitted with lasers.

Interesting point, cosmicbank. IIRC someone from today would have much greater immunity to older, earlier forms of diseases. The modern Marines would probably end up delivering diseases the Romans had little immunity against, and get swept by a pandemic.

Well the diseases problem can work both ways. But I Don't think disease would be the worst problem the Romans would have.

Easily, if they deployed the sharks fitted with lasers.

That has been change to sharks fitted with spearguns. Steam powered spearguns

If an MEU were to go back in time 2100 years it would be a safe bet they ain't coming back

So, Marine officers being the practical people they are, I would suspect would strike a deal as suggested by Great War Ace – with some cunning and planning (quantities Marines possess in considerable amounts) they could certainly re-cast the future – and secure themselves a pretty good future too

Yup – all those modern diseases the ancient Romans have NO natural defenses against. The empire would fall faster than they could cough.

What would be the motivation to destroy the Roman Empire anyways?

Unless this whole thing starts out with the Romans drawing not only first blood, but being absolutely dedicated to wiping out the time-interlopers, I do not envision any reason for the MEU to go on the offensive.

Augustus was smart, he'd offer the marine officers money, food, women, a nice villa, proconsulship of somewhere nice in return for the marines attacking the Germans or Parthians or somebody, and for access to the marine's interesting tech.

These 'what ifs' often don't contemplate the psychological shock for modern soldiers upon realising they have been mysteriously transported into the long past – and sundered from family friends, presumably with no way home.

Agreed with evilgong – an MEU leading five legions would solve that pesky Parthian problem once and for all

The naysayers are forgetting just how superstitious Romans were. The cultural impact on Rome would be devastating, even without any prolonged military action. The Marines would be seen as divine punishers from the gods, if not gods themselves, able to call down fire from the very heavens to consume their foes. The legions would crumble at the first mortar salvo, while any smart politician would immediately do obeisance and hail the Marines as divine, or at least their commanding officer. He'd be emperor within a month, if he wanted. Even if he didn't, the Roman Empire as we know of it would have ceased to exist, becoming something radically different.

The main problem for the Marine commander would be keeping discipline in the unit and preventing some malcontent jarheads from going off half-cocked to create their own little kingdom somewhere.

The real issue for the Marines isn't tech, it's communication with the locals (how many marines speak Latin?), and then what goal would the Marines set upon for their own presence? Establishment of a democratic republic on American lines? Complete non-interference in the timeline (though it would be too late for that)? Or becoming their own political power, selling out for gold, gals, and glory? Maybe deciding to deliberately change future history?

But dealing with the Roman legions is not the problem. Yes, the Marines have ammo limitations, but the Romans would not know this, and would have no clue how the Marines' weapons function. These would be magic to Roman eyes. Once the initial "shock and awe" hit, resistance would quickly become sparse, as the Romans would have no understanding that the destructive power of the Marines has any limits. Minimal demonstration would keep this fear alive. Numbers don't help the Romans if those numbers are all quaking in their sandals at the sight of the fires of the gods. When you've seen your shields shatter, your armor crack, and your buddies fall before you can even see the enemy, no amount of rough Roman discipline will keep you standing firm. You'll drop your weapons and fall prone to worship the approaching gods, because that is what they must be.

The disease thing doesn't work in the Marines favour. They are young fit men, who have been immunised against all the modern diseases, they aren't going to be carrying anything that is going to infect the Romans. They are however going to be exposed to things that the Romans have that they haven't been immunised against or exposed to, like Smallpox for example, or bubonic plague. Also remember any wounds, injuries or illnesses that they do suffer will not get modern medical treatment as they medical supplies will be exhausted very soon.

I agree with Parzival.
The MEU could arrive at a city, drive some Abrams forward, take out the gates then fly over in helis. Panic would ensue and surrender would quickly follow. Move on and repeat. The trick would be to carve out a nice little domain before ammo, fuel and spares ran out.

We all carry germs, we are either resistant or immunized to them, but we can transmit them just as well. Many diseases are endemic, which means that it hangs around a population on a permanent basis. You can easily google those diseases endemic to US populations and are likely to be carried over by the Marines.

While Europeans brought over several diseases to the Americas, we didn't get any plagues in return, so the Marines wouldn't carry many diseases the Romans haven't been exposed to.

Modern hygiene can probably help quite a bit in avoiding diseases like cholera and prevent the spread of other diseases using strict quarantine procedures.

Endemic disease is not the same as being a carrier or being colonised by bacteria that can cause an illness in a compromised patient. Endemic diseases have a low level of new infections in the population every year. Things like Tuberculosis where there is a steady flow of new patients with the disease despite antituberculous drugs. If you come into contact with someone who is infected by TB you stand a chance of catching it, but Marines won't be carrying TB and the things they might be carrying like Staph Aureus were around in Roman times. I am of course assuming the Marines won't be infected with Syphillis, HIV, Hepatitis C etc. As there are no antibiotics the fact that Marines might be carrying resistant bacteria is irrelevant. There will be, however, diseases that the Marines aren't immune to which they will get as readily as anyone else. Without access to modern medicine some of those diseases will be fatal.

"While Europeans brought over several diseases to the Americas, we didn't get any plagues in return"

No. Syphilis (if you beleave the Columbian thesis.).

Read/watch Gate: Thus the JSDF Fought There.

A couple airbursting mortar rounds would destroy a Century. A battery 5 of 81mm mortars would probably shred the Legion.

As to why the Romans would attack? "Hey, what are these barbarians in green doing here? They're not supposed to be here, kill the men and take the women for slaves!"

"While Europeans brought over several diseases to the Americas, we didn't get any plagues in return"

Well if the Eurpeans would have keep it in there ports they would have been ok….

Shock and awe, blow up a legion camp with artillery, they'll think you are gods, and ta da! you have conquered Rome.

Land the MEU commander and a select group of big jarheads by V-22 in the middle of the forum, and they will surrender the city to the incarnate "Mars." If not make very select demonstration of the effects of a hellfire missiles or 155mm howitzer round. The catholic chaplain serves as interpreter.

Conquering Rome with modern firepower is easy. How do you win the peace?

There is of course the problem that the average marine is not interested in taking over an empire and playing politics. If they arrived in Ancient Rome by accident I would guess their first thoughts and energy would be devoted in trying to get back to their friends and family and their normal way of life.

Fred Cartwright: You are correct. There is more thought in your answer then the original question.

The catholic chaplain serves as interpreter.

Except that the Catholic chaplain will not participate in any action to deify any Marine, even his CO. And will probably want to go say "hello" to the young Christ, like a fourth Wise Man. (Augustus was emperor when Jesus was born.)

The moral dilemma for the chaplain and Christian Marines is quite profound, actually, as a stable Roman Empire is necessary for the eventual Crucifixion of the adult Christ, which is central to the faith, yet horrific itself.

For that matter, Marine followers of modern Judaism and Islam would be reluctant to alter the history of the era, as its impact, even when horrifying, is central to the development of their own faiths. No Rome, no Jewish Revolt and thus no Diaspora, while on the Arabian peninsula the culture would alter greatly in the absence of Roman power to the west, likely preventing the emergence of thoughts and ideas that inspired Islam. Perhaps Zoroastrian beliefs would have dominated, with the Sassanid Persians eventually gaining regional dominance.

(By the way, I am making no commentary supporting or disparaging any faith, nor suggesting any are not valid, merely that it is impossible to separate the development of a faith from the historical circumstances surrounding it, and thus inevitable that on some level, changes in history would alter the development of the faith.)

Parzival, now you've done it. Time for this, again:

YouTube link

I think it depends on what the objective is.

Wipe out the entire Roman Empire? Forget it.

Establish a beachhead at Ostia, drive a couple of miles to Rome, shoot the Emperor? I don't think that would be particularly difficult.

Syphillis is an STD, and while it did have some effect, it wasn't as devastating like smallpox. There was no Americapox that wiped 75%+ of the European population in a few short years.

"The catholic chaplain serves as interpreter."
Ah yes, very lucky if the Marines have a chaplain who has studied ancient Latin :)

Fred, I agree a lot about your disease statement, but as a US soldier I have been inoculated against both smallpox and plague. But would my modern shots have any effect, against an ancient disease or has there been to much change since then. Also there is a problem of a lot of the old diseases we dont even really know what they were. Many are only described as a fever. Could be things out there that we have no imunity any more against.

Another question I always have is why do we think ancients are so much more cowardly than we are? Why would the marines not be freaked out by the actions of the Gods? After all they just had a big demo that maybe there is more to the idea than they had before. Also, many modern people, and a great many wargamers have no problem with us fighting back against alien invaders, why would ancients be less able to deal with it?

And lastly, why on earth would modern military officers immediately go over into conquistador mode? Most officrs I have known are going to be looking at long term functionality of the unit. We usually didnt get more than a mile out the gate before somebody is looking at when the next refuel is going to be. And spare parts are a huge issue particularly now with our silly-assed reach back logistics plan. I would not be surprised to find an ACW brigade might be a lot more sustainable than any modern unit.

Owen

In the hand to hand… without shields… the Marines have any chance?… I have to understand that those Roman soldiers have a hard training and maybe their bodies were more stronger (?)…

Amicalement
Armand

You're right, Armand, an M4 isn't going to do very well as a melee weapon, even with a bayonet on it.

But the Romans would have to get into melee first, and their shields and armor aren't going to stop bullets or artillery fragments.

Also, many modern people, and a great many wargamers have no problem with us fighting back against alien invaders, why would ancients be less able to deal with it?

Because,to make a game of it, 'invasion earth' games assume that aliens are very sporting and agree to fight on our terms. If we were invaded we'd probably be wiped out before we knew it. Just look at Desert Storm for what happens when one army us in a different league to the other, then increase the difference to the power of 10. US officers have some knowledge of ancient Rome, the Romans would have no idea of the capabilities and fighting style of the USMC.

I think Great War Ace has it right.
It's not just power, it's where and how the power is used relative to the politics involved.
Bear in mind: could a single Roman unit dominate the entire empire?
Well, yes, it was, for much of its existence: The Praetorian Guard, the elite guard, about the size of 1-2 legions depending on era. The Praetorian Guard, without any automatic weapons, effectively dominated the political process. (This was quite effectively and honestly portrayed in I, Claudius, when the Emperor points to the guard commander and says, "Ask HIM".)
The Praetorian Guard, in turn, was dominated by its small cadre of leading officers.
So, the question becomes, could a Marine Expeditionary Unit dominate the small cadre of officers commanding the Praetorian Guard?
General Mattis could probably do it on his own, but I think the answer the yes.

Laser Weapon System, mounted on APC would help a lot with ammo shortage….

Combined with solar panels….

This sort of thing is probably happening all the time.

I was thinking a hand to hand combat without shields… let's said a night attack to a camp were both contenders has to kill each other without their original weapons (rifle or pillum).. with knives for example…

Another item is in case of a retreat or persecution… who have the best training there?… the marines or the romans… I was referring to muscular resistance … physical …

Finally… are you sure a roman shield did't stop bullets of 5,56 at a distance?…

Amicalement
Armand

I think Pizarro showed that empires can be conquered with marginally superior technology.

I was thinking a hand to hand combat without shields… let's said a night attack to a camp were both contenders has to kill each other without their original weapons (rifle or pillum).. with knives for example…

Well, you're assuming that the Romans can get close to a USMC night defensive position to get into close combat. Marines have NVGs (which now finally run on rechargeable AA batteries), and were taught by the best night-attack specialists in the world (the VC).

In the case of Marines raiding a Roman field fort, the Marines would have full kit. And would be breaking out the improvised munitions manuals.

Another item is in case of a retreat or persecution… who have the best training there?… the marines or the romans… I was referring to muscular resistance … physical …

Probably the Marines, who regularly do 20+ mile marches in full gear and 10+ mile speed marches.

Probably the Marines, who regularly do 20+ mile marches in full gear and 10+ mile speed marches.

For the Romans, that would be a walk in the park. Remember, the Roman moved ONLY on foot. And their kind of combat is all about muscle strength. I'd give the Romans wide advantage on this.

he catholic chaplain serves as interpreter.

Now that is funny… You do realize that the latin of 23 BCE is just a bit different from the church latin of 2017? The odds of his being about to converse with anyone are nil and none.