"Coptic Christians Targeted And Massacred In Egypt..." Topic

… By Militants

"At least 28 people killed, including children, as masked gunmen 'dressed in military uniforms' open fire on a bus carrying Coptic Christians to pray at a monastery in Egypt

Up to 10 masked attackers dressed in military uniforms stopped a convoy in Minya province, 140 miles south of Cairo, as the group was heading towards Saint Samuel the Confessor Monastery in Maghagha to pray.

The gunmen, who arrived in three four-wheel drive vehicles, used automatic weapons to spray bullets at the convoy before fleeing. A health ministry official said a 'large number' of victims were children…"
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Amicalement
Armand

Jesus told us that because the world hates him, it would also hate those who believe in him. Sadly, here is the proof.

I pray that these Egyptian Christians have entered into the joy of the Lord.

Jeff

And I'm sure that the families, friends and cheerleaders of those same murderers demand tolerance from everyone else whenever they go out around the world.

Dan

Requiem aeternam dona eis Domine.

Et lux perpetua luceat eis, requiescant in pacem. Amen.

Pie Iesu Domini, dona eis requiem.

Good to see that Egypt is retaliating. Hopefully effectively.

When I see the photos of the little bodies of the children piled on top of each other in a bloody mess I can only see my own young kids and I thank God I have the faith to believe in a place where all suffering ceases and these little innocent children will experience total and unending joy and peace.

It also confirms to me the existence of a place reserved for those who willfully reject all good.

That said the free world regardless of it's divided belief systems and creeds need to demonstratethat these barbaric actions are wholly unacceptable and individuals who perpetrate them must be stopped at all costs.

What is going to happen when the Christian world finally gets fed up. Puts down the olive branch and picks up the sword? Does the Islamic world really think they can defeat us? It is one thing to kill adults weather they be male or female but the deliberate targeting of children,as we have seen at both the concert and this attack. Show we need to stop trying to reason with them. The only reason the Egyptian are retaliating is because if they did nothing they would look bad to their paymasters in Washington,Same with the Saudis and their new "Anti terrorism" center,remember the vast majority of the 9/11 attackers where Saudi nationals.

We've already been bombing them, killing muslim children and destabilizing the region for decades. Do keep up.

I love it when someone tells me I need to be more "Christian", when what they really mean is one-sided pacifist, always yielding to the other. Well, if Christ was the example of a pacifist, then what does that make Muhammad, the man they want to emulate, if not brutally xenophobic*?

So, while the Western (majority "Christian") powers go out of their way not to hit places where civilians gather, and keep those casualties to a minimum, the fanatical Muslims do precisely the opposite (and the "moderates" look the other way). Those are the places they specifically target. So no apples to apples there.

In fact, I can't think of any other group in the 21st century that can carry out religious cleansing/extermination in their own country without even creating a significant ripple in news media and other circles. Instead, all you get from those news sources and academia are more pleas to understand them better and accept them, make exceptions for them, and to not give priority to the ones that are really being exterminated by them.

Ironic, wouldn't you say? Always using the principles of equality and charity as a perverse weapon against us?

Dan
* Hirsi Ali explained it very well in an interview this past March. Concessions and extending charity to extremists (and even most moderates) is seen by them as additional proof that their violence has received Allah's blessing. I could post a link, but it will only get deleted. But you can look it up.

Cacique Caribe,

Firstly, (Jesus) Christ has nothing to do with the modern concept of pacifism. This modern concept is childish and simplistic. Christian doctrine is more complex and more demanding. It is a spiritual path with moral implications, and Islam is exactly the same path but in a different way.

Secondly, again, the typical Western ‘opinions' about Muhammad show the same misunderstandings, misconceptions and insults. Again, the triumph of ignorance and intellectual laziness. It is a childish and ignorant arrogance, full of prejudices and lack of knowledge about other cultures and religions.

Copt Christians have been living in Egypt for centuries, and they have been respected by Muslim Egyptians for centuries. Copt Christians never were annihilated or expulsed. They might have been easy to eliminate because they were, and they are, a little minority, but they have been respected until now. In fact, they are being attacked by the same fanatical criminals, false Muslims, who are killing many other real Muslims as well.

And finally, regarding Hirsi Ali, she is an atheist, so obviously she does not like religions. Her opinions are totally biased and show a complete lack of deep knowledge of religious matters. In fact, she received a fanatical pseudo-religious education but not a real or deep spiritual education. Her writings show simplistic confusions and misunderstandings. For example, her comparisons between the importance of Christ and Muhammad in their respective religions are nonsenses. What is more, she is not aware of the theological or doctrinal differences between them in those religions, especially the concept of ‘Logos' in each religion, and this knowledge is basic and elementary. She is a respectable activist, but she knows little about religious or philosophical matters. If you want to learn from authentic sources, you have to read works by reputed authors: Mircea Eliade, Frithjof Schuon, Henry Corbin, Martin Lings, Gilbert Durand, Abdelmumin Aya, A.K. Coomaraswamy, C.G. Jung, and many others.

I've read the Koran thrice, large segments of the Ulema and the Hadiths. Also the Bible, the Church fathers, and the theology and philosophy of Christianity. More important than that or what was said and done in past ages is actions done NOW. I don't see the Popes urging Crusade or Holy War, or the Little Sisters of the Poor, or the Dominicans, Franciscans, or Jesuits strapping suicide bombs on themselves and going into Middle Eastern Bazaars and schools to set them off. The sins of the past are in the past and their having happened in no way justifies their resurrection of perpetration again.

I agree with you Cacique Caribe, but remember that it's OK to kill Christians because they are a reproach to their assailants. It's under the formula "All animals are equal, except some animals are more equal than others.

You will notice that no one points out that there are more orphanages, hospitals, research centers, old age homes, soup kitchens, schools, universities, shelters for batter wives, programs to help the poor, charities, clinics to help the sick, and alleviate suffering that begin with "Blessed" or "Saint" or "Sacred" or "Redeemer" or "Pope" or "Our Lady of" and for that matter "B'Nai", "Zion" "Shalom" than those funded by other faiths and all without taking one tax dollar. They are quick to bring up the Inquisition or the Crusades, but the good that is done is never recognized nor that the infamy was done a long time ago.

But Remember Cacique, they are only doing to us what we urge them to. Besides it's really easy to beat up on someone who won't strike back isn't it. Kind of like insulting someone on TMP under the cover of a false name. When we protest their attitude is as the old saws goes "The Horrible Beast! He defends himself!

@Ottoathome: "Kind of like insulting someone on TMP under the cover of a false name."

Please clarify. Am I hiding behind a false name?

Dan

Ottoathome,

Firstly, I recommend reading the Koran and Hadiths Qudsi with the aid of an expert on Arabic language and religious symbology. Otherwise you cannot understand the real meanings of many sentences and expressions. Any translation, even the best ones, is full of inaccuracies. And without expert advice, Western readers tend to read and understand literally the sentences and expressions, and the result is an unavoidable set of misinterpretations and misconceptions.

Religious Truths are beyond time and space. They were useful and necessary in the past, and they are useful and necessary in the present.

Secondly, there is no one reputed spiritual Islamic authority (true Ulamas and Sheikhs) who justifies or promotes terrorist actions and crimes. And none of them accept the criminal actions against Christians or other Muslims. Please, look for information about the Islamic Conference in Chechnya (2016).

Thirdly, I agree with you on the uselessness of mentioning the Inquisition or the Crusades in order to criticise Christianity. (Jesus) Christ's doctrine is magnificent and spiritually untouchable. People have made (and make nowadays) mistakes, even horrible mistakes, but the doctrine remains pure and in effect. And the same is true for the other great religions.

Finally, all religions have their own concept of charity and mutual aid. All religions practice charity, each one in their specific ways. Sorry, but Christianity is not the only one religion that practices charity or mutual aid selflessly, and there is not only one way to practice charity (the Christian one). This type of misunderstandings is very common, and it is derived from the typical Western ethnocentrism and prejudices related to other cultures and religions.

And I think that there are no personal insults on this discussion, at least for now. It is an intense (maybe fierce sometimes) debate, but without insults.

Reuchel

The books were all heavily annotated with explanatory footnotes and end notes, and most were translated by muslims themselves.

Sorry. I am a Lutheran. We go back to the sources and do not rely on intermediaries to tell us what the source says.

Cacique Caribe.

I do not know. is Cacique Caribe your real name? Strange-- I am agreeing with you and you are acting as if I had not.

Did I mistake your words and intentions?

Otto,

You have written: 'Sorry. I am a Lutheran. We go back to the sources and do not rely on intermediaries to tell us what the source says'

Well, your method may work with Christian sources, but it is absolutely useless with other religions or cultures unless you dedicate your live to studying their philosophical foundations.

For example, you need to rely on intermediaries, such as Henry Corbin, if you want to understand the doctrines developed by numerous schools of thought belonging to Shia Islam tradition.

Of course, you have to look for reliable and wise intermediaries.

Ruchel

So do you speak Arabic and are you a muslim?

How does one find reliable and wise intermediaries?

How do you know that "an authority" isn't just saying, "believe whatever I tell you, don't listen to your lying eyes and ears." Sorry I remember all those people who say "Islam is a religion of peace."

I do prefer what the carpenter from Nazareth said when he said "By their fruits ye shall know them." Deeds speak louder than words.

Sorry, I'm a smart guy I think I'd rather hack through it on my own.

Otto,

I have said that, in order to understand correctly the koran and the Hadiths (among other sources), we need to look for advice from experts on Arabic language and religious symbolism. You do not need to speak Arabic or become a Muslim unless you want to devote your life to this religion.

There are many reputed authors and reliable intermediaries. An example of criterion: besides their specific studies about certain religions and doctrines, those authors and intermediaries recognize all the same Truths and basic spiritual principles which are common to all authentic religions. Those authors and intermediaries respect all authentic religions and they understand that all authentic religions are valid and truthful, because the same Truths can be shown and taught in many different ways, because there are different receivers and listeners. Accordingly, those are their fruits, and they are well known by them. They are wise erudites who love and respect all authentic religions.

By the way, no one great religion is a religion of peace. It is a childish stupidity. The modern concept of pacifism has nothing to do with those religions. Islam is not a religion of 'peace'. Christianity is not a religion of 'peace'. Buddhism is not a religion of 'peace'. Hinduism is not a religion of 'peace'. And so on.

Then it seems like that part of the world must have no imams, clerics or scholars with sufficient education and influence over their fellow believers to stop the extermination that is happening around them.

Dan

Ruchel

You have not answered the question of how one determines which are the legitimate or correct interpreters. You have simply provided a litany of empty pieties and blandishments. Is not the test of an "authority" how much his interpretation is congruent with the words he is interpreting? How do you determine if an "authority" is telling you the truth or simply urinating on your shoes and calling it rain.

Methinks you are riding a stalking horse.

Otto,

I know very well whether an author (intermediary) is absolutely reliable. I have offered my reasons. Furthermore, Studying for decades has given me the necessary criteria. But if those reasons are not enough for you, it is not my problem. If you are not able to distinguish between a wise erudite and a liar, it is not my problem either.

If you like to use radical relativism (or sophistic arguments) in order to consider the existence of a general unreliability, it is your choice.

However, I would like to help you with more arguments. I am going to use the same previous example: Henry Corbin. He had a high academic education and he was a reputed teacher (University). So, first fact: high education and erudition, well-known and admired by many universities (in Western countries and in Muslim countries as well).

He lived for a considerable period in several Eastern countries, especially in Iran, researching, studying and meeting the greatest wise men from those countries. So, second fact: he studied from the best sources available and he was supported and admired by the best Eastern spiritual authorities. He worked together with Muslims, Christians and Jews, and he loved all those religions (and other religions as well).

He wrote many works, all reputed and magnificent. His understanding of Shia Islam was complete and definitive, and he is the best source available, especially for Western readers. He took part in Eranos Group meetings together with personalities such as C.G. Jung, Mircea Eliade and Gershom Scholem, among others. Third fact: an impressive career and an impressive work, in quantity and quality. His studies have helped find a common ground and a shared foundation in all authentic religions. So, he is an excellent example of reliable intermediary.

But if you consider that this intermediary is not reliable, it is your decision. I know very well that you are wrong, but I cannot do anything (and I do not want to do anything else) in order to change your mind. It is not my job, it is yours.

By the way, I have never ridden a horse… I prefer to keep my feet on the ground, and my eyes on the stars, spiritually speaking, of course.

Cacique Caribe,

I assure you that there are many true spiritual masters (true Sheikhs) there who are trying to stop those atrocities, but the situation is very difficult. The political, social and economic situation in Egypt is a total mess (Western intervention in its political matters has not helped). Furthermore, there are many terrorist attacks against other Muslims, with dozens of victims as well, especially in peripheral regions and rural areas. Copt Christians are not the only victims.

Dear Cacique Caribe

My argument is not with you, it is with Ruchel, unless you are in agreement with him, in which case your argument is based on personal animus toward me. That's OK for you too.

Strange, I thought when you wrote "I love it when someone tells me I need to be more "Christian", when what they really mean is one-sided pacifist, always yielding to the other. Well, if Christ was the example of a pacifist, then what does that make Muhammad, the man they want to emulate, if not brutally xenophobic*?
So, while the Western (majority "Christian") powers go out of their way not to hit places where civilians gather, and keep those casualties to a minimum, the fanatical Muslims do precisely the opposite (and the "moderates" look the other way). Those are the places they specifically target. So no apples to apples there.
In fact, I can't think of any other group in the 21st century that can carry out religious cleansing/extermination in their own country without even creating a significant ripple in news media and other circles. Instead, all you get from those news sources and academia are more pleas to understand them better and accept them, make exceptions for them, and to not give priority to the ones that are really being exterminated by them."

I thought your point above was clear and I understand it. Your point seems to agree with my opinion that self-evident actions need to experts to qualify what our eyes and ears tell us.

Sorry if I was wrong.

Otto,

Sorry, but there are no 'self-evident' actions in this war. It is a very complex situation, so any childish and arrogant analysis is absolutely useless.

Sorry again, but, unfortunately, your eyes and ears cannot tell you anything relevant about the complexity of this conflict, especially if your sources of information and knowledge are a handful of pamphlets, tabloids, biased newspapers, mass TV programs and ethnocentric literature full of nonsenses, mistakes and prejudices.

The real fact is that Western Powers have invaded and bombed (and they continue invading and bombing nowadays) several countries for strategic and economic interests, they have caused the killing of thousands of civilians and have destroyed entire countries in the process, that is, they have committed atrocities and war crimes. But your conclusion is: those civilians are barbarian Muslims and we are the only real civilized people in the world.

Again, where is your critical thinking? Definitely it is lost in the crowd.

So, yes, you have to study hard. You have to do a lot of homework.

So, yes, you have to study hard. You have to do a lot of homework.

By reading "religious authorities"? And ignoring the Medía? You offer no practical way to become involved as an informed person anywhere in the world. The "tabloids" will lie and misinform. The MSM is no better. "Pick your poison".

I think that you enjoy talking about this. There is no way, that you have offered, to use "knowledge" to change a damned thing.

Ignorance is general, everywhere. Prejudice is ditto that. Self-interest, double ditto that. So what is going to happen? The dominant power(s) will win.

We need to make sure that the winners are us and not a pack of medieval-minded, self-appointed regulators: who assert that the progress of generations of enlightenment should be destroyed, setting us back centuries and returning us to "the old order" of paganistic, socially stratified tyranny as the gov't.

This is a war of ideals, not religion. The ideals espoused by the Founders of the US Constitutional form of representative gov't: versus the latest aberrant attack on those ideals. Once ISIS is defeated, we still have to deal (as always) with the virulent elements of socialism in our own Gov'ts. The control freaks are always with us, like the poor. Only a vigilant people will triumph and defend the better ideas contained in our founding documents.

Dear Ruchel

To respond in any way of evaluation as to your argument, character, morality, intelligence, and personality truthfully would be to land me in the doghouse. What I would say would be the truth but truth bout people of your ilk is judged a crime on TMP.

I've done my homework and studied hard. You make up yours as your go along.

Otto,

Your opinion about my ‘argument, character, morality, intelligence and personality' is completely irrelevant to me.

It is necessary to avoid childish tantrums and irrational attacks of anger, because they add nothing to any serious discussion.

I agree with you: people who cannot offer arguments are prone to use insults and personal attacks.

So, yes, I advise you to avoid insults and personal attacks because if you use them, you will harm to yourself. And this kind of behaviour is unnecessary and useless.

Otto is correct, the truth is western powers go out of their way to not hit civilians, rules of engament