"East German NVA OOB for Sabre Squadron vs Team Yankee" Topic
8 Posts
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Guthroth | 26 May 2017 3:58 a.m. PST |
Now I've got both the Team Yankee NVA and the Sabre Squadron "7 Days To The Rhine" books, it appears that TY has gone down a very strange route with their Company organisation. (I'm ignoring the Platoon organisation in this comparison because I assume most people will be gaming with a reinforced company, which is what both systems intend. Sabre squadron is the simplest. An NVA Mot Schutzen Co has 3 platoons each of 3 BMP or BTR each of which has 2 x 4 man rifle teams. One has an RPG-7, and the other has an LMG and RPG-18. The company HQ has 2 more rifle teams and MANPAD AA team in another BMP or BTR. Total 10 x BMP/BTR with 82 troops who can dismount. This is entirely logical, and conforms with information available elsewhere, although having 10 men in the Company Command BMP worries me. 6 would make more sense. The Team Yankee Mot Schutzen Co box set has 1 x 3 man command group, 10 x 4 man Rifle teams, 9 x 2 man RPG-7 teams and 2 x 6 man LMG teams. Total 73 troops who dismount. They don't however suggest how this compliment is divided into platoons nor how they fit into transports. The only logical breakdown is two large platoons of 34 (5x4, 4x2, 1x6) and a command group of 5 (1x3, 1x2), but this simply doesn't work with BMP's that have a dismount capacity of 8. You could fudge it and have 2 platoons with 4 x BMP each plus one for the company command, but I cannot find that suggestion anywhere in the book or on their website (surprise, surprise). Nor can I find any justification elsewhere for such an organisation. As it is, I'm forced to consider that Team Yankee has gone for a "company" organisation that fits their box (i.e. sales model) rather than the actual OOB confirmed by ex NVA troopers in literature and here on TMP. If you could add a third LMG team to the Team Yankee OOB, you could then present a much more logical 3 platoon organisation each of 3 x Rifle teams, 3 x RPG teams and an LMG team (total 24 troops) which would fit into 3 APCs. A 10th vehicle would then carry the Co HQ and a Rifle team for a total of 79 dismounts. How you divide the bases between the BMPs is problematical but irrelevant as I don't believe it's possible to buy the extra figures required from Team Yankee without buying a whole new box set ….. Sabre Squadron is very flexible in respect of basing, whereas Team Yankee presents gamers who want a choice of rulesets with a real problem. Because the Competition Game doesn't really interest me I've decided to base for Sabre Squadron with the LMG and RPG figures integral to the 4-man base. So that I can play Team Yankee against someone from my local club who is working on Brits, I'm also creating the 10 x 2 man RPG-7 bases and 2 x 6 man LMG bases that Team Yankee needs. Since I'm not using Team Yankee figures, the extra cost is relatively low. I just wish there was a cheaper option for the 10 x BMP/BTR carriers as they will cost more than all the figures that give me the two company options. Comments about the accuracy of both rulesets OOBs would be very welcome |
Achtung Minen | 26 May 2017 4:36 a.m. PST |
My comment about the NVA organization in the different games would be that a game is a game… there's not really a need to be 100% accurate, in my mind! As for the historical NVA organization from the early 80's till the end, it was as follows: Company HQ: • Company Commander (Kompaniechef or simply Chef, usually a Hauptmann) • Political Officer (Stellvertreter des Kompanie für politischen Arbeit) • Technician (he was called Schirrmeister, or fleet officer, in a BTR company) • Company First Sergeant (Hauptfeldwebel, a senior NCO) • Administrative clerk (Schreiber) Company HQ Troop (would ride in 1x BMP or BTR) • Company Troop Leader • Vehicle Driver • Vehicle Gunner • Radio Operator • 2x MANPADS Operators (Fla-Raketenschütze, each with Strela-2 Fliegerfaust) • Group Leader • 2x Soldiers • Medic Then there were three platoons of 3 vehicles each (9 vehicles total, 10 with company HQ). Each platoon was organized the same: Platoon HQ (did not have a separate vehicle, but rode with the squads… BTR and BMP were designed to uncomfortably squeeze in 11 men, counting both crew and passengers!) • Platoon Leader (usually a Leutnant) • Second in Command (usually a senior NCO) Three Squads, each in a BMP or BTR: • Vehicle Driver • Vehicle Gunner • Squad Leader • 2x LMG gunners (with lMG-K aka RPK) • RPG gunner with pistol and RPG-7W • RPG assistant with MPi-KM aka AKM • Squad second in command with AKM • Soldier with AKM Everyone except for the vehicle crew dismounted, meaning the squad had 7 dismounts. They typically fought in a line formation (with vehicles trailing just behind, staying abreast or pushing just ahead of the infantry, depending on circumstance). However, they could also break into a four-man fire support group (squad leader, RPG gunner and loader, RPK gunner) and a three-man maneuver (squad second in command, RPK gunner and regular soldier). In addition to the RPG, the squads also had RKG-3M HEAT grenades and a handful of RPG-18. |
Guthroth | 26 May 2017 5:32 a.m. PST |
Achtung : That's great information, many thanks ! Living as I do between RAF Uxbridge, RAF Northolt, Heathrow Airport, RAF West Ruislip and Northwood Command Centre link my experience of WW3 would have been very, very bright and very short, but I do like my ‘toys' to look the part. You have confirmed what I thought about the company command group, and doubly confirmed my suspicions about the Team Yankee box set. For aesthetic purposes therefore, I will reduce the Company HQ troop to 8 figures rather than 10, add an officer to one of the fire teams and reduce another one to 3 figures, giving the correct 23 per platoon. Where did the Company HQ reside ? Were they back at the formation area ? |
Achtung Minen | 26 May 2017 6:36 a.m. PST |
Not a problem, I have been compiling different Ossi-Wessi organizations for a "German Civil War: WW3" article for TW&T. For the Company Troop, it is worth saying a few things… several sources drop the "group leader" and two soldiers, so I am not positive if they were merely something on paper or if they were actually present at some point. So the company troop was likely just: vehicle driver, vehicle gunner, troop leader, radio operator, medic and 2x Strela-2 gunners (7 men in all). The company commander (Chef) would ride in the company troop vehicle (BTR or BMP, depending on the company type) along with the political officer (Stellvertreter des Kompaniechefs für politische Arbeit). The "technician" is really a non-commisioned officer that maintains the company's equipment and weaponry (his is variously titled either "Stellvertreter des Kompaniechefs für technische Ausrüstung" or "Stellvertreter des Kompaniechefs für Technik und Bewaffnung"… he was typically of Feldwebel rank). In a combat situation, he would ALSO ride in the company troop vehicle. Otherwise, he had his own motorcycle (which would have been exhausting for long commutes, although I am not sure if the cramped interior of an IFV would have been more desirable). That would bring the company troop vehicle up to 10 men in all. The clerk drove (with the company first sergeant riding in the passenger seat) in a Ural-375D, which also carried extra small arms munition, the infantrymen's backpacks, Zeltbahn, entrenching tools etc. A small trailer attached to the Ural truck which carried explosive munitions (grenades, the BMP's "Maljutka" AT-3 rockets etc.). In a combat situation, the company commander would not usually be engaged with the enemy… that is what the platoons are for! The company troop is NOT really intended to be a combat unit, but rather for command and control. The company troop leader could lead the company troop like a squad leader in emergency situations, of course. Another thing to note is that the two Strela-2 gunners were technically part of the battalion's Fla-Raketenzug and were effectively permanently attached to the company troop. They were added in the late 1970's. Edit: Fun fact, each soldier was issued a number of collar liners (Kragenbinde, a sewn strip of white cloth) which was to be buttoned into both the field dress (Felddienstanzug) and the dress uniform (Uniformjacke) and worn at all times. Soldiers were expected to keep in spotless and pristine, bright white, even in combat deployment! The NVA were truly the last Prussian army in the history of the Earth. Can you imagine trying to keep a clean collar when the captain comes around after days of fighting? |
Mako11 | 26 May 2017 7:44 a.m. PST |
TY is a game, not even remotely based on historical TO&Es, or weapons in many/most cases. The total lack of an M60 MG for the American troops being one of the more glaring errors for me, made even more so by the fact they already produce the figures in their Vietnam range. TY is a bit like checkers, or chess, with different miniatures for the playing pieces. Almost forgot to ask, AM, did the East Germans also field two extra vehicles in their IFV/APC companies, like the Soviets did, at the company level, for their support weapons, e.g. 12 x IFVs/APCs really, instead of just 10? |
Achtung Minen | 26 May 2017 9:40 a.m. PST |
Mako, no "extra" vehicles in the Mot.-Schützen Batallion. The M60 is not the only odd thing, of course… the Mot.-Schützen company pack comes with soldiers armed with PKM's! These did not exist in the company organization, of course… Oh well, you could still use the models to represent reserve troops or KdA. I am just mixing Vietnam and TY figures for my Americans to get the M60's… close enough, in my opinion! |
Mako11 | 26 May 2017 12:26 p.m. PST |
Thanks for the info, AM. I figured the East German TO&E would be just like that of the Soviets, so that is good to know. Also, thanks for the info on the PKMs as well. An excellent suggestion on the M60s. |
Achtung Minen | 28 May 2017 5:36 a.m. PST |
By the way, Mako, you weren't the fellow looking for Bundeswehr Panzergrenadier organization under Heeresstruktur 2 (1959-1971), were you? Do you still need that information? |
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