McKinstry | 18 May 2017 3:53 p.m. PST |
No, I do not think there are issues with UK gamers any different than any other. Yes, I think this thread is a bad idea. Michael Stockin is a great guy and TWW allows no drama. This thread simply could not exist on TWW. |
Legbiter | 18 May 2017 3:55 p.m. PST |
I'll rise to this. I'm a Brit war gamer and my reservations about other folk's war-games are largely attributable to [1] poor back-story, [2] rubbish miniatures, [3] over-concentration on ACW/Napoleonics. Ironically enough, my absolute favourite war-game of all time is the American Richard Borg's Commands and Colors [sic], specifically, Napoleonics. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 18 May 2017 3:57 p.m. PST |
I think you need to have a really honest talk with God about the true face of what motivated you to make this post. Then, act accordingly. I frequently talk with God, thank you. I'm simply wondering how common this insularity is among British wargamers. As I said, I get comments about this all the time. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 18 May 2017 4:00 p.m. PST |
Michael Stockin is a great guy and TWW allows no drama. This thread simply could not exist on TWW. I strongly disagree, but that's an issue for another topic. The matter at hand is that he obviously feels a need to emphasize the 'British' component in his wargaming, in contrast to TMP which has never emphasized nationality. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 18 May 2017 4:02 p.m. PST |
Not sure on this, but if Michael Stockin is the fellow who runs The WW, he is one of the nicest, most helpful web admins I've ever run across – he stayed online when it was the wee hours his time, just to help me, a complete stranger (and an American!), with a registering snafu. You could learn something from him. I haven't forgotten his many sock puppet accounts on TMP, as well as his accusations that TMP has a secret brothel! So my opinion of Michael obviously differs from yours… |
20thmaine | 18 May 2017 4:16 p.m. PST |
While I'm in a pensive mood what's with the small but vocal minority of British wargamers who resent sharing their hobby with anyone else?They sneer at wargamers from other places and their contemptible views. They act as if the hobby belongs to a single country. Oh…them….don't pay them no mind. They're not worth mithering about. |
20thmaine | 18 May 2017 4:18 p.m. PST |
What is TWW? Serious question. |
Doug MSC | 18 May 2017 4:21 p.m. PST |
And just when I thought everyone was mellowing here, they just keep pulling us back in! |
Redcurrant | 18 May 2017 4:27 p.m. PST |
Bill – if you are trying to alienate a good proportion of your readership, you are doing a very job of it. I have not come across anyone who is that insular as to think that only British Wargames products are good, and the rest is rubbish for being foreign. I have bought products from Italy, France, Spain, Estonia, the US, Australia, and even Wales. I buy whatever I believe the best to be, regardless of where it comes from. I will admit that your spelling of certain words does grate on me, but I accept this as it is not a UK site, so uses the spelling appropriate for that country. This thread should be deleted before people take umbrage and leave over your comments. Your maintenance time also bugs me, as I like to see whats new whilst having breakfast as well. If you dont like what the Frothers bunch are saying, then do what I do and dont go there. You are only providing them with more ammunition to wind you up. |
VVV reply | 18 May 2017 4:43 p.m. PST |
TWW = The Wargames Website |
20thmaine | 18 May 2017 4:44 p.m. PST |
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Winston Smith | 18 May 2017 4:44 p.m. PST |
Hello, Lads at Frothers. I know you're really enjoying this. Up to 6 pages now of commentary? That's as many posts as are on this thread. Bill. Stop being such a wuss. "Those bad people keep making fun of me!" Why do you care? To make a point about Frothers being British, you're going to alienate all the remaining Brits? Does that make sense? Hell, most British gamers can't stand Frothers either. Most of the ones I'm in contact tell me so. Frothers is just plain unlikeable. Which is kind of its charm. And why on Earth do you care that Stockin emphasizes that he is British. This is another case of you peeking at sites that don't like you, just to be offended by it. Being offended by someone emphasizing British content strikes me as … strange. |
IanKHemm | 18 May 2017 5:01 p.m. PST |
The Wargames Website. I'd forgotten about this forum. I did make an account sometime back and, thanks to this thread I'm going to check it out again. Cheers, folks. |
Lascaris | 18 May 2017 7:12 p.m. PST |
One of those threads that makes you shake your head and ask . |
Ragbones | 18 May 2017 7:33 p.m. PST |
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Alcibiades | 18 May 2017 7:52 p.m. PST |
As a Canadian who doesn't have a dog in this fight and who can look at this hobby with 48 years of experience, I can say I've always viewed miniature wargaming as a British hobby and a hobby that they were happy to share with anyone with a love for toy soldiers. One only has to look at a history of the post 50s hobby to see that. Excluding boardgames, Britain has clearly driven the hobby; more and better manufacturers, more rules writers, more hobby publications. I lived and played in the UK for 8 years and there has always been at least one ex-pat Brit in our little gaming group and I have never heard expressed the kind of negativity suggested by the editor. Wargaming is an international hobby enjoyed by history buffs and lovers of toy soldiers everywhere most of whom were likely introduced to the hobby by a British magazine, author, range of figures or games system. Sounds to me like someone has a bit of "hobby" envy. |
tyroflyer2 | 18 May 2017 7:57 p.m. PST |
It is natural for different countries to have a different culture including gaming. I can't see much to be gained by this topic. I'm pleased to see gamers in support of each other from both sides of the Atlantic. We have more in common than divides us. |
Narratio | 18 May 2017 7:59 p.m. PST |
Another Brit checking in – I don't run around denigrating other nations wargamers or wargaming. Don't think I've ever read a post which does do that. Or maybe I just don't spend enough time on line visiting sites where this happens as a daily occurrence? I've obviously missed some startling development in international relations, can I ask what has happened? |
Old Contemptibles | 18 May 2017 8:33 p.m. PST |
How come fantasque is allowed to say and I can't? ! |
Old Contemptibles | 18 May 2017 8:35 p.m. PST |
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Old Contemptibles | 18 May 2017 8:47 p.m. PST |
Good day to you sir. I said good day! |
Editor in Chief Bill | 18 May 2017 8:52 p.m. PST |
Bill – if you are trying to alienate a good proportion of your readership, you are doing a very job of it. I expect that my readership is intelligent enough to understand what I am saying, and to see that it is obviously not a blanket attack on British gamers. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 18 May 2017 9:01 p.m. PST |
And why on Earth do you care that Stockin emphasizes that he is British. This is another case of you peeking at sites that don't like you, just to be offended by it. Being offended by someone emphasizing British content strikes me as … strange. As I said, I am in a pensive mood. It never occurred to me to brand TMP as an 'American' site, so I wonder why anyone would think to brand their site as 'British.' (Or any other singular nationality.) Then, to go beyond that, some of these individuals go so far as to view the hobby in terms of 'Britishness'. They rate people, companies, and websites for being pro- or anti-British. Then denigrate people who have different experiences than theirs. I don't understand such people. |
Northern Monkey | 18 May 2017 9:13 p.m. PST |
If you don't brand your site as American, why do you change the spelling on U.K. Company news items? This whole thread is ridiculous. It does nothing to make me as a Brit feel that you are being inclusive, rather it gives the impression that you don't want us here. The idea of companies as being rated for their level of pro or anti Britishness sounds like pure fantasy. I have never seen anything like that, and in the past few weeks I have ordered from the US, the U.K., Poland and Germany. My purchasing is based on the quality of the product, and nationality has nothing to do with it. I don't know any Brits who think differently. This does look like an anti British attack based on some kind of paranoia. It is very silly indeed. |
basileus66 | 18 May 2017 9:45 p.m. PST |
While I have had my differences with some British wargamers, it has been due to politics (Gibraltar! Damm, how I hate that silly rock!) not wargaming. I have always found most British wargamers helpful and willing to share their experiences. Maybe their sense of humour is not exactly like mine, but it is not that difficult to realize when they are giving you a tongue in cheek answer. In my opinion, this is Bill being sick of Frothers attacks against TMP and trying to share his annoyance in some oblique, clumsy way. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 18 May 2017 9:46 p.m. PST |
Bill. Stop being such a wuss. "Those bad people keep making fun of me!" Why do you care? That's not the point, John. What I want to get a sense of, from our British brethren, is to what degree this is a problem among the British wargaming community. Is it only a few dozen people on a particular website? Is it one of two people in every game club? Is it 5% of gamers? 10%? 20%? |
Editor in Chief Bill | 18 May 2017 9:48 p.m. PST |
If you don't brand your site as American, why do you change the spelling on U.K. Company news items? As an editor, I have been taught that it is professional to have a single standard of spelling across a publication or website. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 18 May 2017 9:53 p.m. PST |
In my opinion, this is Bill being sick of Frothers attacks against TMP and trying to share his annoyance in some oblique, clumsy way. Maybe Though the comments I get in my inbox are from a variety of people, and in most cases I have no idea if they are Frothers or not. If I had to judge based on just my inbox, I would say this is a problem flooding the U.K. But I doubt my inbox is a fair way to measure the problem, which is why I bring this up for discussion. It is interesting that so many people choose to take offense that the question is being asked, rather than to simply answer the question. |
willlucv | 18 May 2017 10:49 p.m. PST |
Thinking about this, I might well wish that a company whose products I wish to buy are British or at least European. Nothing to do with nationalism but purely because anything other than tiny orders get hammered for import duties and handling fees. |
David Manley | 18 May 2017 11:19 p.m. PST |
"Is it 5% of gamers? 10%? 20%?" in my 40+ years of wargaming in the UK I would say it is between 0% and 0%. Never encountered the phenomenon in all that time. |
Tiberius | 19 May 2017 12:00 a.m. PST |
Serious, I have never seen this and I have been wargames for over 40 years |
forrester | 19 May 2017 12:04 a.m. PST |
I too share bafflement. Even if there ARE a few British gamers who plague the editor.. well, it's the internet. Always some weird people around. Surely better to keep it private,ignore them rather than suggest it's a peculiarly British problem and annoy lots of people totally needlessly? |
Gwydion | 19 May 2017 1:42 a.m. PST |
If you're from the U.K.: Do you see British wargamers who are like this? How common are they? What causes this? 1:No (occasionally online I come across sarcastic/jokey remarks that may be interpreted as chauvinist, but it usually seems to be a self mocking awareness of a strand of general British smugness around at the moment). 2.See above – my answer is anecdotal not statistical – but it is very uncommon I believe. 3.As I don't see it (bar my comment above) I don't think it exists, so I don't know. If you get an inbox full of complaints I suspect it is probably mostly a result of the annoyance that some people felt over the down time(currently much reduced) for database work – it hits the UK at breakfast when people want a quick early morning fix to see them through the day! The spelling stuff is just Brits of a certain generation doing their version of the Academie Francaise and worrying a missing 'u' may spell the end of civilisation (it probably does but…!). Easy for me to say but – relax Bill, Brits don't hate you or America. |
Bob the Temple Builder | 19 May 2017 3:14 a.m. PST |
My second contribution to this topic … "What I want to get a sense of, from our British brethren, is to what degree this is a problem among the British wargaming community." It's a problem I am totally unaware of … but as Mandy Rice-Davis might have commented, as a Brit I would say that, wouldn't I. "I would say this is a problem flooding the U.K." Flooding? It's not even damp underfoot! As I stated earlier, I feel insulted by the blanket nature of the original comment made by the Editor. Is wargaming a 'British'-dominated hobby? Perhaps we do have a disproportionate number of glossy wargames magazines, manufacturers, and companies in the UK, and that may be due to the way the hobby evolved during the late 1960s and early 1970s … but I never forget that people like Scruby and Morschauser were working away developing the hobby in the US at the same time … and in the case of the latter was doing things that are now accepted as standard or common wargame design features way ahead of anyone else. On the magazine front … well if asked to list my favourites, MWAN and THE COURIER would be in my top five, and their demise is a great, great pity. US English spelling does not particularly bother me as I often use it when writing commands on my computer. As a Brit I prefer our way of spelling certain words, but I can fully understand why the Editor wants to maintain a coherent spelling policy across TMP. I frequently remind myself that US English uses words and expressions that have fallen out of use in modern UK English (e.g. Fall for what we now call Autumn; Hog for what most Brits call pig) and enjoy that diversity. I do hope that this topic dies the death soon, and we can get back to the real point of us being here, namely the shared hobby of wargaming! |
ochoin | 19 May 2017 4:09 a.m. PST |
Michael Stockin? I guess that's Mike the Editor of TWW? To be honest, I have no personal regards for the man. That's because as an editor, he maintains a very low profile on his site. Almost invisible so it's hard to either like or dislike him personally. I've never run a wargames' forum but this may well be an effective strategy to avoid controversy. It seems to work on TWW. As I said earlier, no *personal* regards for Mike the Editor but I guess I have *professional* regards for him. I hadn't thought about it before this thread surfaced. His forum is pretty good in spite of the appalling spelling used so Mike the Editor's approach may well be worth emulating. Its interests don't really coincide with mine (eg its predilection for sci-fi & fantasy etc) but I drop by to visit now & then. The forum does seem to concentrate solely on gaming & polite, if stimulating discussion so those looking for drama or soap opera may need to look elsewhere. As for the "dreaded" Frothers, I don't go there so for good or evil, they don't figure in my universe. I've always found avoiding a fight to be as absurdly easy as to go looking for one. That's not to suggest Frothers are looking for a fight. As I said, I wouldn't know. I would think the editor of TMP might be better served concentrating on TMP. |
alexjones | 19 May 2017 4:33 a.m. PST |
There is some anti American sentiment among a small minority of the British but that is down to jealousy as the US dominates globally. It is definitely not an issue when it come to the hobby though. Why would it be? I have said on TMP controversially that, in my opinion, the US rules are superior, better written and more enjoyable. Ia m just grateful that we beat the French in North America and that English is the global language – despite what the old drunk Junkers thinks!! |
20thmaine | 19 May 2017 5:08 a.m. PST |
That's not the point, John. What I want to get a sense of, from our British brethren, is to what degree this is a problem among the British wargaming community. OK – I hadn't realised this was a Frothers thing (again). I think it's more an Internet thing than a British thing. Sure there was a friendly rivalry between Scruby & Featherstone. Friendly being the operative word. And from that point out I don't think there's been a genuine problem. Look at the success of AH, SPI, TSR, Metagaming, Chaosium and others in shaping the UK gaming experience. Look at the success of UK publishing in the book and magazine sphere for really spreading the hobby to all corners of the globe. Gamers game. There's always someone ready to moan about something – hey, even I moan about some stuff. It matters not a jot. Play games, roll dice, read books, take photos, blog, paint, write rules, whatever – that's the hobby. The rest is fluff. |
Cornelius | 19 May 2017 5:08 a.m. PST |
As a British gamer this is not something I recognise but then I am only peripherally connected to the "club" side of the hobby. I rarely buy USA-originated merchandise but that is not out of prejudice.(I love Bob Murch's Pulp Figures from Canada and buy them now North Star carries them). |
parrskool | 19 May 2017 6:03 a.m. PST |
.Yes, and I'm not against any national group, either…. oh wait, Lancastrians ? |
olicana | 19 May 2017 6:19 a.m. PST |
I think that, historically, Britain can probably claim wargaming as a British hobby. But, like everything else we came up with, like railways, rugby, football (that's soccer to the amateur) and cricket, we gave it to the rest of the world so the rest of the world could do it better than us. "For the supply of an Empire where the sun never set, which is now deep in darkness but the railway's there yet." |
GildasFacit | 19 May 2017 7:56 a.m. PST |
That's it Parskool, name the only part of the UK that actually DESERVES to be a separate country. |
Marc the plastics fan | 19 May 2017 8:20 a.m. PST |
Didn't realise it was an issue. Wargamers across the globe have been very friendly and helpful with em, and I like to think I have reciprocated. TMP is US-focussed, in that most posters seem from the states. But never felt any issues. Sorry Bill, don't understand this one And the DH'ing that is occurring seems harsh Marc (at work as well as a plastics fan) |
Norman D Landings | 19 May 2017 8:22 a.m. PST |
This thread's a shambles. You know who could have settled this (non)issue with ruthless efficiency? Nazis, that's who. Let's get some Nazis all up in here, take care of business. |
forrester | 19 May 2017 8:34 a.m. PST |
I think its as well the editor never met any Vulcans. |
McKinstry | 19 May 2017 9:23 a.m. PST |
You know who could have settled this (non)issue with ruthless efficiency? Nazis, that's who. |
Zoltar | 19 May 2017 10:29 a.m. PST |
I am reminded of Richard Gere's response to Lou Gossett Jr. in "An Officer and a Gentleman" when told to leave/wash out of the Navy… "I got no where else to go" was the reply he yelled under duress. I think certain people should hope that remains true of Miniature blogs. |
EricThe Shed | 19 May 2017 10:39 a.m. PST |
Quote 'While I'm in a pensive mood' Perhaps the pensive mood might have been improved by a cup of tea and a digestive biscuit…. |
Bangorstu | 19 May 2017 10:44 a.m. PST |
Bill, perhaps if you don't want to get labelled with the tag 'anti-British' you should stop making up ridiculous anti-British threads? Just a thought. |
Trebian | 19 May 2017 11:31 a.m. PST |
I'm enjoying the irony of an American indulging in accusing people from another country of cultural imperialism. |
badwargamer | 19 May 2017 11:34 a.m. PST |
Very rare. You are mistaken inmho.. .and well done in provoking a reaction as everyone feels ypu intended |