fullerena | 16 May 2017 8:54 a.m. PST |
I wouldn't be able to hurt your feelings if I tried. I'm bad at that. I'm just saying that I'm not actually trolling, just hoping you will one day actually make your point instead of saying that you've already made it. I'd assume AQ/Daesh/ISIS/randomterrorists would do about as well or poorly in a straight firefight against a modern professional first world regular military than they would against a time travelling Wehrmacht or SS force, although I'd also give the time travellers the option of some modern weapons if they wanted them to make it a fairer comparison. I don't think the Nazis would be more effective, and can't see any reason why they would be, much less anything said modern forces should imitate. You obviously can, and I'd sincerely be interested to know what you're thinking. |
Legion 4 | 16 May 2017 9:02 a.m. PST |
Well … I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. I've made my points you can like or dislike it. Here … try this. The WWII Germans were good at war fighting … They because of that would be good at fighting Deash/AQ. And I've elaborated on that. And a wargame might be interesting … I think someone like you gets offended by just the mention of the word Nazis. With is a bad group of people. But if we only studied the history of good people we won't learn very much … now would we ? You obviously can, and I'd sincerely be interested to know what you're thinking. I think I mentioned this in the beginning of the original thread. Both the Nazis and the terrorists are brutal, ruthless, etc. That would be an interesting scenario to game. As neither would follow any strict ROE, etc. And I think I said, there would be no quarter, no prisoners, no mercy. See the US troops don't normally/always fight like that … So you have a problem with that hypothetical game ? |
Todd McLeister | 16 May 2017 9:07 a.m. PST |
It's disingenuous to suggest that you were merely claiming "it would be interesting to set up a scenario with a squad of SS vs. a squad of Daesh/AQ", which you clearly and obviously were not. What you stated was Albeit, I can't help but think how "useful" these types might be when fighting terrorism. Deash … AQ … Taliban … AS … BH, etc., … vs. Neo-Nazis. Don't get me wrong, Nazis are reprehensible, horrible, etc., etc. But so are the terrorists, IMO … And this is some cutting edge soldiering right here Use of the MG within the Infantry SquadSustained operations to get into the enemies decision cycle. Don't give him time to react Maneuver to the flanks and rear e.g. Blitzkrieg The Combined Arms concept Attacking into the enemies rear areas to destroy log and block reinforcements, etc. Use of aircraft effectively at a tactical level. All of which has been practiced for decades. A current infantry platoon would steamroller early war German soldiers. Especially Cannucks! Are you even " qualified" to quiz me ? This again? Yes. Yes we are. Free Weasel. He did nothing wrong.
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fullerena | 16 May 2017 9:09 a.m. PST |
Actually, now that I think about it, maybe panzerschokolade would help kill ISIS faster. Edit: We saw how effective brutal combat against partisans with no restrictive ROE was in World War 2. The Wehrmacht and the SS both worked together to show the world how to do it in their own unique style. The bits that weren't genocide, slave labour and war crimes weren't very effective, and were very good at pissing civilians off. Do you think someone who's been sending angry messages to their commander because they've been on the VBIED waiting list for ages and they heard some guy two towns over got one within a week is going to change their opinion on the people shooting at them if the people shooting at them announce "No quarter!" in a German accent? |
Legion 4 | 16 May 2017 9:13 a.m. PST |
This again? Yes. Yes we are. You are ? I was not addressing you but fullerena … But you can continue if you like but I think I already answered all fullerina's questions. I take it you were in the Canadian Army ? So yes, you may have more knowledge or insights then someone who wasn't. IMO opinion of course … Do you have a problem with a wargame with Nazis vs. Deash ? Or do you have a problem with me ? Like some others … It's disingenuous to suggest that you were merely claiming "it would be interesting to set up a scenario with a squad of SS vs. a squad of Daesh/AQ", which you clearly and obviously were not. That was the beginning of the conversation, and I added to that as it went on. But you can call me disingenuous if you like … And this is some cutting edge soldiering right here I was or thought I was answering a question. I don't know what fullerina knows or does not know. I think like some others you don't like my take on things so no matter what I say you will find fault, etc. I've run into you before I think. Regardless, if you do like my opinions, me etc. so be … And again … I take it you served in the Canadian Army ? |
Todd McLeister | 16 May 2017 9:21 a.m. PST |
No problem with you specifically, but I do have a problem with your current fluidity of facts. Behaviour unbecoming IMHO. As for answering fullerena's question… No, you haven't. You've dodged it, but you haven't answered it. And I have no problem with a wargame of nazis vs. ISIS. But that isn't what was being discussed, was it? |
Todd McLeister | 16 May 2017 9:22 a.m. PST |
But you can call me disingenuous if you like I already did and I don't need your permission. |
jclaxton | 16 May 2017 9:24 a.m. PST |
The Germans were so good they lost. Whats to learn? And my god does anyone need to rant about their military service. As if it grants some all encompassing knowledge of all things military. I had an eight track in my 70 camaro, I'm wondering what special knowledge that grants me. |
Legion 4 | 16 May 2017 9:27 a.m. PST |
No problem with you specifically, I think you do … but no matter. but I do have a problem with your current fluidity of facts. I think I did make my points … again … you may or may not agree … Behaviour unbecoming IMHO. Really ? Are you going to hit me with an article 15 ? And I have no problem with a wargame of nazis vs. ISIS. But that isn't what was being discussed, was it?
That is what I thought the discussion had moved to. I already did and I don't need your permission.
Indeed … now are you ing ? |
Legion 4 | 16 May 2017 9:29 a.m. PST |
Germans were so good they lost. Whats to learn? And my god does anyone need to rant about their military service. As if it grants some all encompassing knowledge of all things military. I was asked about why I thought what I did. I was adding my CV, etc. To give it some veracity, etc. But if you think that is not OK … so be it. I won't be hurt … |
Todd McLeister | 16 May 2017 9:31 a.m. PST |
My my. You certainly do love using that little green icon when it's not going your way… Unlike you, I've now made my points, so I'm going to disengage. Free Weasel.
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Legion 4 | 16 May 2017 9:32 a.m. PST |
Do you think someone who's been sending angry messages to their commander because they've been on the VBIED waiting list for ages and they heard some guy two towns over got one within a week is going to change their opinion on the people shooting at them if the people shooting at them announce "No quarter!" in a German accent?
Again … you are just trying to be silly ? |
fullerena | 16 May 2017 9:33 a.m. PST |
No? I mean, if people are willing to put up with bureaucratic hell and waiting lists to get the chance to blow themselves up, finding out that the people shooting at them and trying to kill them will now try extra hard isn't that big an additional motivator. They're already trying. Even the people not signing up for suicide duty still probably won't mind that much. It'll make the enemy seem more evil, which is great for propaganda, and their bullets aren't exactly going to become dramatically more deadly. Anyway, the best part about Free Weasel is that it'll happen automatically. Free Weasel: not just a slogan, an inevitability! |
Legion 4 | 16 May 2017 9:34 a.m. PST |
My my. You certainly do love using that little green icon when it's not going your way…Unlike you, I've now made my points, so I'm going to disengage.
Yes I do like that green icon. I don't know what you want me to say. I thought I stated my opinion, you can agree or disagree … But it seems you want to belittle that. I think you don't like what I had to say or even how I said it … |
jclaxton | 16 May 2017 9:40 a.m. PST |
Actually the eight track was in my 67 belvedere. Sorry for any inconvenience. |
Legion 4 | 16 May 2017 9:43 a.m. PST |
I had an 8 track too in my van. But I liked the cassette player better in my other car … Sorry for the inconvenience too … |
Todd McLeister | 16 May 2017 9:46 a.m. PST |
My name is Todd and I claim my Free Weasel. |
Legion 4 | 16 May 2017 9:49 a.m. PST |
Now you're just trying to be silly … |
fullerena | 16 May 2017 9:49 a.m. PST |
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fullerena | 16 May 2017 9:49 a.m. PST |
furthermore, free legions 1 through 3 |
138SquadronRAF | 16 May 2017 11:15 a.m. PST |
It seems that espousing Nazi beliefs is ok. But calling someone on it is not. There are those who say TMP is not consistent… No. This is the same as The Troll Rule. Being a Troll is acceptable. Pointing out that the Troll is, in fact, a Troll results in the Troll being let off and the person who points it out gets sent to the Dawghouse. |
Gunfreak | 16 May 2017 12:07 p.m. PST |
Free my Danish brother! In fact free all that are causalities in Legion nazi fantasies. |
138SquadronRAF | 16 May 2017 12:39 p.m. PST |
Must admit based on my family's history of fighting the Nazis I think that those who fight them on TMP should be let out of the Dawghaus. Trouble is , and our Dear Leader does have an unfortunate tendency to overlook right-wing political commentary, unlike any commentary perceived as originating from the left.* *Americans' view of what constitutes the political left includes mainstream views of the British Conservative Party or "Tories" as I found to my own cost. If the Tories are viewed as left wing here in the US I'm sure the English readers will have an idea of what has happened to America. |
Hafen von Schlockenberg | 16 May 2017 1:27 p.m. PST |
Just a word--let's try not to fill up the Dawghouse any more than it is. I doubt that was Coyote's original idea. |
Winston Smith | 16 May 2017 1:34 p.m. PST |
He wanted him to have company. It worked. |
jah1956 | 16 May 2017 3:14 p.m. PST |
I would post a comment on this and state what I think about Legion 4 but I would go to the dawghouse. However I can state free Weasel. |
Lascaris | 16 May 2017 4:19 p.m. PST |
Classic TMP thread consisting of various individuals trying to pry rational thought from a bot repeating "I already made my point" over and over again. Oh, and free Weasel. p.s. I had an 8-track in a 1974 Plymouth Satellite therefore I am qualified to operate a nuclear reactor. |
Hafen von Schlockenberg | 16 May 2017 5:49 p.m. PST |
Well that didn't work. Since I'm here,a bit of trivia: serious eight-track collectors (yes,I know) are aware that there was a very short span of time when it looked as if eight-track was going to replace LP's. Cassette tapes were originally envisioned as way of recording spoken lectures or dictation,as they were not thought hi-fidelity enough for music. That,of course, turned out to be wrong,and eight-track went the way of the dodo. But during those few years, there were recordings made ONLY on eight-track, and last I heard, a number of them exist in no other form. Those are the Holy Grail for collectors. So you may want to have a dig through those boxes in the garage. You never know. . . |
Lascaris | 16 May 2017 6:10 p.m. PST |
I had to check eBay and there's a ridiculous amount of 8 track related items for sale. Everything from tape decks to recordings to maintenance and repair parts. Maybe I'll go old school and install and under the dash 8 track player in my car….or maybe not. |
CorroPredo | 16 May 2017 6:35 p.m. PST |
Give weasel an additional three weeks. |
basileus66 | 16 May 2017 10:50 p.m. PST |
Sorry to say, but Rebecca is right. Legion4 is making a lame argument. Fighting an insurgency is not easy. It takes a lot of moveable parts working together, and time. A lot of time. German anti-partisan tactics weren't particularly effective. Actually what Legion is doing is mixing anti-partisan (terrorist, if you are more comfortable) with small unit tactics. Allied squads have shown again and again that in open combat no terrorist cell is a match for them; of course, partisans know that too and try to even the playfield as much as they can, by ambushing the regulars with all kind of IEDs, snipers and trying to mix with bystanders to avoid being targeted by the soldiers. Naturally a German SS -or Wehrmacht, for that matter- would have opened fire without regard for ROE; and yet the only result was that the particular tactic of mixing with civilian population wasn't used by WWII partisans. It didn't mean that other tactics were also discontinued. Actually, the best way to avoid being targeted by terrorists in their own countries is to provide them with no targets: quit places like Afghanistan or Irak, and let them rot. If they threaten with overspilling out of their countries, then and only then, identify them, locate them and kill them or take them prisoners, as needed. |
nevinsrip | 16 May 2017 11:05 p.m. PST |
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(Phil Dutre) | 16 May 2017 11:49 p.m. PST |
Any discussion discussing military tactics from WW2 in which the following phrases are used: … fighting the Nazis … or … Nazis would be effective in fighting … deserves not to be taken seriously. It merely shows intellectual ignorance, sloppiness, or lazyness in stating arguments and striving for a correct historical context. I expect more from a historical wargaming forum. |
Hafen von Schlockenberg | 17 May 2017 7:05 a.m. PST |
I suppose eight-track collecting shouldn't really be too surprising.
Yeah,that's him. And that's a turntable and analog receiver to the left rear,too.
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Volleyfire | 17 May 2017 9:10 a.m. PST |
Is it safe to come out from under the table yet? Free all Weasels, everywhere. |
Hafen von Schlockenberg | 17 May 2017 10:10 a.m. PST |
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Editor in Chief Bill | 17 May 2017 4:14 p.m. PST |
It merely shows intellectual ignorance, sloppiness, or lazyness in stating arguments and striving for a correct historical context.I expect more from a historical wargaming forum. I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that it is historically wrong to refer to WWII Germans as Nazis? |
Hafen von Schlockenberg | 17 May 2017 6:18 p.m. PST |
Not to second-guess Phil, but it is true that talking about Nazis in the context of tactical doctrine is a bit absurd: "Nazi tactics"--what were they? Things get a little complicated when we talk about who the allies were fighting. Yes, "Germans" and "Nazis" were often used interchangeably during the war,at least popularly. But Allied leaders were at pains to differentiate the Nazi regime from the German people. That was in part for propaganda purposes. But of course there were many Germans who were not Nazis, just as there were Nazis who were not Germans. It's hard to divine what's going on in people's heads (some more than others,maybe) but if someone talks repeatedly about how effective "Nazis" were,because of their "efficiency" and "ruthlessnes", it's difficult not to take them at their word,especially when they include "Neo-Nazis" in the mix. Even if they later try to,um,weasel out of it by starting to talking about "Germans". |
Rod I Robertson | 17 May 2017 8:32 p.m. PST |
Perhaps an inspirational and instructive video would help to show how easy it would be to clear this matter up: youtu.be/xZlSn6V7aLg Weasel Libre! Cheers. Rod Robertson. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 17 May 2017 9:16 p.m. PST |
Not to second-guess Phil, but it is true that talking about Nazis in the context of tactical doctrine is a bit absurd: "Nazi tactics"--what were they? But it would be a gloss of history to suggest that WWII Germans were not Nazis, wouldn't it? Some soldiers were more indoctrinated than others (i.e., SS and Hitler Youth). Nazism did have an influence on the battlefield, in the sense that it influenced soldiers to see the war in a particular way. That might not directly result in any 'Nazi tactics', but it certainly influenced tactical behavior. |
sjwalker38 | 17 May 2017 11:05 p.m. PST |
I'd be interested to see some examples of how Nazism directly influenced the development of small unit tactics – I don't think infantry started goose-stepping across fields, did they? |
marcus arilius | 17 May 2017 11:54 p.m. PST |
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Volleyfire | 18 May 2017 2:40 a.m. PST |
IMO Nazism affected how the average German soldier, not just the heavily indoctrinated ones such as SS and Hitler Youth, viewed his enemy and sometimes may have reacted to them in the heat of battle, at least certainly on the Eastern Front where the propaganda machine was heavily involved and to a greater effect there as the war wore on and the Germans began to lose.It was hardly different to how Communism and the Commissars attachment to units affected the Soviet forces.As for affecting tactics and their common battlefield implementation, nein. Possible weasel escape route? youtu.be/lMnjhxsm-Gc |
John Treadaway | 18 May 2017 3:34 a.m. PST |
I don't do 8 track but have a ferocious number of the HiMD minidisk recorders and disks to go with them. Having to cut back on the bigger 1gb disks, mind you: getting silly expensive (search youtube for the excellent Techmoan and his insightful analysis). As for the other thing, how about we all "step away from the vehicle". Including Bill. John T |
(Phil Dutre) | 18 May 2017 3:48 a.m. PST |
I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying that it is historically wrong to refer to WWII Germans as Nazis? "We are fighting the Nazis" is a slogan, good enough for Hollywood or comic-book heroics, but it is simply not good enough for a serious discussion about WW2 era military tactics, doctrine, or military developments. Of course I know what is meant. "Nazi" is a general catch-all term for anything or anyone related to 1933-1945 Germany. But the term "Nazi-Germany" usually refers to the political system and the organisation of Germany as a state. It is a political system, not a military doctrine, not a nationality of its citizens, not a designation of any military tactic – although there are of course overlapping and related causes and correlations. On a forum that discusses military history, and if you want to be taken seriously, I expect that people do not use slogans or propaganda language. If someone wants to state a (hypothetical) military situation, one should take it up a level, and specifically refer to a specific aspect of a WW2 military organisation. Armies during WW2 were hugely complex organisations, varying over time and theatre, and it makes not much sense to refer to them as "the Nazis" or "the communists" or "the imperialists". Sure, you can do that if you want, but it immediately shows the limitations in your understanding of the topic, and the lack of ability to discuss the matter at a deeper level. You end up in arguments such as "The Russians were no good in '41, because they were all communists", or "Germany overran France, because they were all fanatics trained in the Hitler Youth" or something like that. Hence, I do think that if someone who wants to discuss the WW2 German military, and is using the the term "the Nazis" to refer to anything related to that, he is either showing ignorance or lazyness. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 18 May 2017 5:57 a.m. PST |
Hence, I do think that if someone who wants to discuss the WW2 German military, and is using the the term "the Nazis" to refer to anything related to that, he is either showing ignorance or lazyness. I understand your point, but I think it is needlessly arbitrary. I've been recently reading about the war in the Pacific, and the behavior of the Japanese soldiers cannot be explained simply by referral to their tactical manuals. There is an undeniable influence of the war culture/ideology on battlefield behavior, it seems to me. |
Kevin C | 18 May 2017 7:33 a.m. PST |
Call me naive if you like, but I am sure that if we could have a few more people post concerning this subject then we could resolve this matter to everyone's satisfaction. |
badwargamer | 18 May 2017 7:56 a.m. PST |
Great idea Kevin. Might I suggest arguing with the editor as a way to get him onside? |
Editor in Chief Bill | 18 May 2017 10:42 a.m. PST |
It's not an argument, it's a discussion. |
sjwalker38 | 18 May 2017 10:58 a.m. PST |
Is this a 10 minute argument or did you pay for the full half hour? |