"XYZ Division - Subscription Based Wargame " Topic
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XYZ Division | 15 May 2017 3:32 a.m. PST |
Hey Guys, My name is Mark and I am the creator of a new fully 3D Printable war game called XYZ Division, which we hope to launch on Kickstarter soon. XYZ Division is unique in the fact that it is the first subscription based online war game, hosting a plethora of 33mm figurines and scenic models which you are able to print and battle with. Nearly all our figurines are customisable letting you chose the weapon as well as the podium they stand on. You can print out as many models as you desire as there are no download or printing limits, this enables you to create monstrous personalised armies and table tops of your dreams at a fraction of the cost of purchasing models or scenic objects from the stores. Now we know that not everyone has access to 3d printers which is why we are looking to create software which would enable you to purchase the models at a low cost and have them printed at a hub near your geographical location. This reduces not only shipping costs but manufacturing costs too you can find more about XYZ Division on Instagram where we are heavily active instagram.com/xyzdivision I would love to hear your thoughts on 3D printing table top figurines and scenery. Is our concept something that would interest you guys? |
SeattleGamer | 15 May 2017 6:53 a.m. PST |
As I see it, you have three elements to conquer: #1 – The Game. Needs to be something people want to play. No depth and it becomes a one-hit wonder, and people will move on to the next shiny thing. #2 – The Minis. Tabletop gaming is all about the visuals. If the minis are more plastic tokens and less sculpted works of art, interest will wane quickly. #3 – The Printing. Unlike a traditional minis game company offering rules and minis you order and take deliver of, your approach is that people download the files and print their own. If they don't have a printer, they download the files and print at a hub. Assuming your game is fun and engaging, and the sort of thing that keeps people wanting to come back and play again, then you can check off item #1 from your list. As for Item #2, I am not convinced that affordable 3D printers have the resolution to print quality gaming figures at this time. By affordable, I am talking $500 USD give or take a hundred bucks. I am not sure that a $1,000 USD printer has the capability yet either. And you are quickly leaving the realm of general hobby printer once you hit triple digits. Which would mean your possible base of wargameing customers with proper 3D printers shrinks big time. I have a $300 USD printer, and it makes wonderful terrain pieces: dungeon tiles, stone walls, ruined houses, etc. But it is not all that adept at making a smooth surface (like a slick aerodynamic sci-fi vehicle or plates of armor). And I think it would totally fail if trying to print a 33mm figures face. Then there is Item #3. When printing out my dungeon tiles and walls, counting the cost of the printer itself and the filament, my price per tile is about .25 cents. My time is free. At 12 pieces for a room, that comes to $3. USD I find that a total bargain. I can build a full dungeon with halls, rooms and scenery for $50. USD If I had to pay a hub, I figure the cost would be at least x4. Their time is worth money. A busted print means wasted filament, and they must try again. And there is shipping. I would not pay $200 USD to build a dungeon I could print myself for $50. USD So I do not think the "Hub" will work for many people. If it is a killer game, and the minis are fantastic, then sure, some people will pay for a Hub to do the printing. But if the game is not killer, and the minis are not fantastic, I don't think many will pay a hub to get their minis. Which means you are mostly back to needing people to have their own printers, and those printers need to have the capability to print your figures in a pleasing way. When you finally Kickstart, I will follow. If there is a freebie figure to download and try out, I will happily do so to see if my own printer is suitable. But if not, I would not use a hub myself. |
UshCha | 15 May 2017 7:43 a.m. PST |
Not sure I agree with Seattlegamer. A figure is a figure, at gaming ranges 3D prints are fine. If you idea is to stare at figures from 3" then OK. I want to play, so 4 ft is it. We each have our own priorities. I play mostly with 3D printed and finish is not an issue as far as I am concerned. I won't be joining as I have all I need and master my own models when I need more. Good luck. |
John Treadaway | 15 May 2017 8:41 a.m. PST |
My time is free. That's something I don't hold to, but each to their own. My time is very expensive as I'm acutely aware of it being a limited resource… John T |
thehawk | 15 May 2017 4:21 p.m. PST |
My thoughts are that the concept requires more thought. What is the value proposition that would make anyone want to buy your product? In the computer area, Ex Illis tried something similar and it failed. Some reasons why - 1) the assumption that software technology would be of interest to gamers 2) the figure sculpting 3) the need to play by their rules. The phrase "subscription based online war game" contains two words that shouldn't be used in marketing – subscription and online. They aren't pluses but minuses. Another turn-off word is podium. WW2 with figures on one of those ugly fantasy plinths? A slotta base? Wash your mouth out with soap and stand in the corner. Cost? Unlikely to be cheaper than current technologies. From personal experience with printing 35mm 18thC, metal casting is still the cheapest method of making figures. On self-production: A resin printer costs $400. USD The resin costs a small fortune and has limited shelf life. It will print decent figures in 35mm but moulded has sharper detail. I can buy many boxes of plastic 1/48 for the same price, and I don't have a mess to clean up after. Shapeways would charge $5 USD for an unpaintable WSF figure and $20 USD for paintable resin. A metal figure costs a lot less to make. One-off resin printing is uneconomical. Buildings etc – a filament printer costs $300. USD PLA costs $25 USD/kg. I have a lot of stl's already, obtained free online and via kickstarters. The models are OK but nowhere near plastic or scratchbuilt quality. Via Shapeways if a figure costs $5 USD to print, how much would a building cost? And the #1 show-stopper, I play in 20mm using simple rules for fast-play games. |
advocate | 15 May 2017 11:26 p.m. PST |
My time is free, but very limited. The limiting factors to my armies are space and the time needed to paint them. Being able to create them on demand won't speed me up, and I'd not be able to justify a large initial investment. And I don't do 33mm… |
Maxim C Gatling | 16 May 2017 3:58 p.m. PST |
See, I learned something. I've been slobbering on ShapeWays stuff for the longest time and I did not know that some materials can't be painted. I tell ya what I would go out of my way to buy (3D Printed-wise) 1. Stuff nobody currently makes 2. Stuff I need a LOT of, like scatter terrain. But it's got to be cheap. Like I said, I need a lot of it. |
Maxim C Gatling | 16 May 2017 4:18 p.m. PST |
I've thought about doing something like this for the longest time. I'd pick a genre that's not overcrowded, but still established. For example: There's a lot of interest in Post-Apoc games right now. I'd still do some market research of course, but I wouldn't get into Fantasy or Futuristic Sci-Fi. Not that I don't love 'em, but because I don't want to compete in those markets when I know other upcoming and viable markets are still stuck using paper cups and cardboard boxes for terrain. Then I'd find out what's on the market and create things for that genre that either currently don't exist or they're really hard to find. Example: Computers w/CRT monitors, cash registers, and Deathclaws. I'd offer them in both 15mm and 28mm Heroic scales and then expand into other scales depending on scale popularity. Ever see something you love, but it's for the wrong scale? Me too. If I was doing 3D printed stuff, there's almost no excuse for not offering it in multiple scales. What I would not do is make another tank. Or more Fantasy characters. Or more IG stand-ins. Even if I can make a bad-ass product for an affordable price, there's already tons of established manufacturers out there already making those. Take Victoria for an example. Her figures are fantastic. Medium price range. Great casts. And she makes almost all IG Stand-ins. BUT…she's one of the first, best and only makers of FEMALE IG stand-ins. She's jammed herself firmly in a great niche. I remember emailing Victoria miniatures begging them to do a female figure, and now females are about 40% of their line-up. To dream…the impossible dream… |
XYZ Division | 17 May 2017 2:17 a.m. PST |
Hey Guys, thank you for your responses, Just to touch on a few points a few of you have raised. To print a miniature of ours, on average costs $2 USD no matter what 'importance' or 'class' the model was to the faction. The print was done by a 3rd party hub we found via 3D Hubs printed on a Form 2 printer at 25 microns. If we were to print it ourselves, in house, using 'funtodo' resin it would have cost $0.60 USD, or $1.20 USD if we used Formlabs Grey resin. A succesfull Kickstarer would help enable us to create software which would streamline the users experience so they don't have to download and go to a hub, instead this would be done on our online portal. Terrain wise, we created practically all of our scatter terrain, which can be seen when we launch for $40. USD You wouldn't be able to purchase anywhere close to the amount of terrain we printed out for $40. USD Again thanks for your responses, we really appreciate them! |
SeattleGamer | 07 Jun 2017 6:36 a.m. PST |
I suspect this campaign will do poorly when it kickstarts. The sort of inexpensive printers (target of $500 USD or less) that most wargame hobby types can afford are just not capable of producing the level of detail needed for a detailed figure. Terrain, sure. People and faces … not so much. SLA printers are better at this, but much more expensive. And I suspect not many wargamers have bought into SLA printers. I think XYZ are perhaps 10 years too soon for this if their target product and audience is wargamers. I could be wrong, and I wish them luck. |
thehawk | 07 Jun 2017 10:13 a.m. PST |
There is an xyz ks that started a few weeks ago and has 5 backers so far. Might be the same thing. The Wanhao sla printer sells for 399 to 495 depending on where you buy it (US or China). |
SeattleGamer | 10 Jun 2017 8:36 a.m. PST |
@thehawk … Yep, just went looking for that campaign you mentioned, and it was for XYZ Division subscription. It was cancelled yesterday, and it still had only 5 backers, in 15 days. And not a single post from anyone. If they ever come back, and offer clearly defined pricing for specific products, I would be interested in some of the terrain they featured (the Shanty Huts, Scenic Accessories and Outcast Fort all looked really good to me, and so did the bases), assuming they would print fine on an FDM printer. But even though the Kickstarter had perhaps the LONGEST campaign page I've ever seen, packed with reading material, I could find no way to acquire the terrain. |
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