"Soviet tank desant - with LMG?" Topic

Hi gentlefolk,

I'm sitting here with my unpainted 15mm dudes, obeying my obsessive compulsion to divide them out into properly historical squads. In order to do this, I need to know if tank riders ever carried Degtyaryov machine guns at the time of Kursk.

Does anyone have any evidence that they did? Photos would be brilliant, but proper secondary sources will certainly do.

Many thanks.

In the 1942 format, the Motor Rifle Bn had two Rifle Coys and one SMG Coy. The Rifle Coys had one LMG per Squad, the SMG Coy no LMGs, officially at least.

In 1943 the Rifle Coys changed to SMG Coys, but kept their LMGs, while the pre-existing SMG Coy stayed all SMG.

Gary

The only SMG troops who kept their LMGs were the ones still riding lorries in the motor rifle battalion (which became a motor SMG battalion later in the war).

The tank desant company was SMG only, even in the November 1943 organisation. So, no LMGs for tank riders at Kursk, or any other time of the war.

That is not to say that Russian infantry armed with rifles LMGs, SMGs, ATRs etc never rode on a tank….

I guess from a photo it'd be hard to tell if they are supposed to be on the tank or they just hitched a ride :)

Can anyone direct me to a site or source with proper squad / section / fireteam breakdowns for Soviets motor rifle and desant infantry?

BTW Gary – is 'bayonet strength' any nearer to being hosted somewhere online again?

I have most of it copied but it's such a useful resource I miss it being out there.

huevans011:

Soviet desant SMG squads had 8 men each, all armed with either SMG's or rifles. The number of SMG's rose as the war progressed until all were SMG armed. The platoon consisted of three such squads plus a leader attached to the first squad for a total of 25 men per platoon. A company was three such platoons plus a very small company HQ element of one officer, one senior NCO and two other ranks. Thus a company had 79 souls at full strength. This organization was not valid for truck borne SMG units nor for SMG units in Infantry (rifle) battalions or naval infantry battalions.

Cheers and good gaming.
Rod Robertson.

"Can anyone direct me to a site or source with proper squad / section / fireteam breakdowns for Soviets motor rifle and desant infantry?"

The Red Army Handbook By Zaloga is the closest you are going to get.

Russian infantry did not use fireteams, they still don't. The section is the smallest unit of Manoeuvre (so the platoon CO fights the platoon as a whole).

Sharps "Soviet Infantry Tactics" has some interesting sections on specific tactics for sub machine gun units.

I recall seeing an organization for a tank desant squad with seven men. Five had smgs, one an LMG, and the squad leader was supposed to have an SVT-40 semi-auto rifle.

Even more confusing, riflemen in motor-rifle units got smgs to replace their rifles, but they kept their heavy weapons like lmgs, mmgs and mortars. I read a book by a Soviet veteran who was a tank rider ( hence the name of the book). From what I can tell, he was actually the commander of a platoon in a motor-rifle unit in a mechanized brigade, so he should have been in trucks. But he apparently spent most of his time on the back of a T-34. And he does talk about carrying Maxim guns with them.

I suspect this all means they did what worked for them, regardless of what the TOE said.

My understanding is that at higher levels (Battalion?), units were authorized a large chunk of SMG and given relative freedom on issuing them, so some formed SMG only units out of their rifle formations (which would have retained their heavy weapons) and others parceled them out.

This is in contrast to units formed specifically to be armed with SMG like "Desant" types.

It gets pretty confusing but that's good for the gamer I suppose :)

These are the Company level details from the 1942 and 1943 Soviet Shtat for the Motor Rifle Bn of a Tank Brigade.

1942 Rifle Coy -

Coy HQ – Commander, Deputy commander, Political officer, Starshina (CSM/1Sgt), messenger, medic, 2 medical orderlies

MG Platoon – Cmdr, 2 Squad leaders, 2 NCO gunners, 6 gun numbers, 2 HMGs

Three Rifle Pls, each;

Platoon Cmdr (SMG)

NCO (R), gunner(anti-tank rifle), asst (R)

Three Squads, each – NCO leader (R), NCO gunner (LMG), asst gunner (R), six riflemen (4R, 2 SMG)

Revisions of summer 1942 removed Atk Rifle teams from Pls, which formed a Section at Coy level of single NCO and three teams of two men each. Both Deputy cmdr and political officer deleted from Coy HQ.

1943 Rifle (SMG) Coy -

Coy HQ – Commander, Starshina (CSM/1Sgt), messenger, medic, 2 medical orderlies

MG Platoon – Cmdr, 2 Squad leaders, 2 NCO gunners, 6 gun numbers, 2 HMGs

Three Rifle Pls, each;

Platoon Cmdr (SMG)

Three Squads, each – NCO leader (SMG), NCO gunner (LMG), asst gunner (SMG), six riflemen (6 SMG)

1942 SMG Coy -

Coy HQ – Commander, Deputy commander, Political officer, Starshina (CSM/1Sgt)

Three SMG Pls, each;

Platoon Cmdr (SMG)

Three Squads, each – NCO leader (SMG), seven SMG men (7 SMG)

1943 SMG Coy -

Coy HQ – Commander, Starshina (CSM/1Sgt)

Three SMG Pls, each;

Platoon Cmdr (SMG)

Three Squads, each – NCO leader (SMG), nine SMG men (9 SMG)

Skarper;

Thanks for the query. Sadly it was a trying year in the real world starting about last June, due to a long term illness in the family moving into the final stages.

I would like to do something fun again, and for my sins this kind of thing counts as such. Fingers crossed I'll have a revised version of bayonetstrength back on the web by later this year, expanded out to Regimental level for the most part and done in a pdf format so I can play with tables.

Gary

Fingers crossed I'll have a revised version of bayonetstrength back on the web by later this year, expanded out to Regimental level for the most part and done in a pdf format so I can play with tables.

Sounds like a great idea! :)

I hope this year goes better for you, Gary.

Bayonetstrength was a great resource and I'm sure many would appreciate it's return.

As per the request for photos:

Early War tank riders on a BT-7 (note all have rifles):

Mid War tank riders on a T-60 from 1942-43:

Mid War tank riders on a T-70. (note the mix of rifles and SMG's:

Late War tank riders on a T-34/76 from either 1943 or 1944. (note the mix of rifles and SMG's):

Late War tank riders on T-34/85's in 1944 (note all seem to be armed with SMG's):

Cheers and good gaming.
Rod Robertson.

Thanks, guys! Very much appreciate the several contributions.

I checked the e-catalogue for my local alumnus university library and it has Sharpe's book. So I'll be driving over this evening.

Lots of questions though. I understand that the desant infantry was used as close support / protection for the tanks. A such, they didn't need long range personal weapons. But I also presume that the motor rifle battalions were used in the same way as motor rifle battalions would be used by the Western forces – i.e. standard infantry which happened to have soft skin mobility. Why then would the Soviets replace their rifles with short range smg's?

Most firepower in infantry units is generated by light and medium MGs, so it didn't really matter I the riflemen had rifles or not. The SMGs did give them considerable firepower at short range.

Same reasoning as went into Volksgrenadier units.

Then along came assault rifles…

Thanks all! Much contradiction between folks' recollections, but the tips for references will be very useful.

From Zaloga, the Red Army Handbook, pg 86, Table 2.18:

TO&E 10/420-432 from February 1943 (with a note saying "as amended to September 1943") lists a mechanised brigade as having a submachine gun company with

4x officers
22x NCOs
68x "other ranks",

being 94 personages, with

88x submachine guns
5x carbines
1x motorcycle
1x truck

and

0x LMGs.

Certainly correct if I'm wrong, but I assume they are the desant troops. Just how those 94 are divided into platoons and squads is not covered.

Where did your numbers come from, Rod and Gary? I guess there must be more than one NCO per platoon to reach of your numbers, up from the 68 "other ranks" of Zaloga.

Sorry for you loss Gary and hoping you have a chance to get bayonet strength back up again. Pdfs sound like a great step forward. I copied and saved the pages I wanted to keep as documents. Pdf downloads would have saved me quite a bit of time.

Sorry Gary, I missed it on first reading. Sorry for your loss.

Thanks folks.

The figures in my post are from shtat 010/347 of Feb42, a handwritten version of 010/273 from Jul42, and a 1944ish rewrite of 010/502 from Nov43.

The Mech Bde is a different thing, and I've only been able to get my greedy mitts on the Mar42 shtat, and then less a few pages. That gives the SMG Coy as

Coy HQ of Cmdr, 2inC, Pol offr, Starshina, Sgt clerk, messenger and rider with M/C & sidecar)

Three Pls each of Cmdr, six NCOs and 21 men

Coy Transport Det of Sgt and six men (for a car and six trucks/lorries) and Admin Det (cooks and cobbler).

A schematic for a 94-man model in the 010/420 series Mech Bde shows three Pls of 28-men each, five men in Admin, which would leave five for Coy HQ, doable by deleting the 2inC and politico.

Also to note that the Mech Rifle Bn had an SMG Platoon as well, with Cmdr, senior NCO, runner, three Squad leaders, three assistants and 21 SMG men.

Odd thing about the early war SMG Coys in the Tank/Mech Bdes is that the Squads are all Sergeant ranks. So Senior Sgt as leader, perhaps a Sgt as assistant, then all Junior Sgts rather than privates. Never seen anything like it.

Gary

Where did your numbers come from, Rod and Gary?

Good question and I had to do some rummaging around to find the source in my notes. My information came from Gary's old "bayonetstrength" website which I printed out six or seven years back IIRC and stuffed into the back of my Battleground WWII rules binder. I had forgotten that it only applied to 1942 and very early 1943 SMG formations. I've been using it for years now. But definitely no LMG's to be found at this time.

Cheers and good gaming.
Rod Robertson.

Odd thing about the early war SMG Coys in the Tank/Mech Bdes is that the Squads are all Sergeant ranks. So Senior Sgt as leader, perhaps a Sgt as assistant, then all Junior Sgts rather than privates. Never seen anything like it.

Then again, also the tank crews at the time tended to be pretty much all of officer and NCO rank. Perhaps somebody in Stavka thought that the principle should be applied to everybody going to the battle on top of the tanks, not just those inside them.

Or maybe it was an attempt to rise the morale of the brave lads going to battle on top of a tank and armed with SMGs. Not exactly the most pleasant place to be once the bullets start flying…

I like the morale idea, I imagine they got a pay rise too?

Gary

Whatever the motivation, after a while the folks at Stavka seem to have figured out that it was OK to let also lowly privates to be designated as tank riders…

That said, there were all sorts of activities taken to increase the morale of the Soviet people to crush the fascist aggressors.

The pay raise could certainly be one reason as the US Army did similar prior to Normandy: in order to give those in combat leadership slots a bump in pay, everyone was promoted one grade. Thus the corporals serving as assistant squad leaders became buck sergeants and the sergeants leading squads were made staff sergeants while the platoon s/sgt became a Technical Sergeant.