Paskal | 13 May 2017 8:52 a.m. PST |
Howdy All I bought a while ago, the rules ‘Too few to fight, too many to die', very good buy and I recommend it to all those who love and complain the Indians of america like me … But there are still some minor problems with these rules… I do not manage to set up a single army because many of my figurines of plain and rocky mountain Indians have neither bows or firearms ! The bow is the minimum required in the army lists of this rule, except that many of my figurines do not even have, they have only weapons for melee !!! It was incredible I had not thought about this and so I had not planned ! This is the first time that such a thing has happened to me for decades that I make wargames ! Please help me, If you have the possibility you ask for me Mr Chris Peers how to budget the Indians figures without bows or firearms ..! The problem is the same with chiricahua apaches figurines with muskets, there are not a lot… In these rules ,why did the U.S. cavalry have repeat carbines only after 1880 ? Mr Chris Peers never heard of the Spencers repeat carbines ? The U.S. infantry also had many repeat carbines before 1880, as the 13th Infantry U.S. in 1870 with his Spencers repeat carbines… Mr Chris Peers never heard of the Spencers repeat carbines ? And why only the Crows and Comanches can have spears in these rules and that this favors them, and not the other tribes? Is it because the spears of the Crows measured 12 feet and those of the comanches 14 feet ,while those of the other tribes are only 6 to 7.5 feet long, which is that in the same way always an advantage in the face of infantrymen or dismounted cavalrymen.? PS: Ah I forgot,I put several ads on the marketplace to buy figurines,please see if you have to sell … Cheers Breton |
rmaker | 13 May 2017 9:52 a.m. PST |
Sorry, Breton. The Spenser was out of service shortly after the Civil War. It had two problems – fragility and short range (remember, it fired what was, in effect, a pistol cartridge). The trapdoor Springfield was a much superior weapon for the type of fighting the US Army was involved in during the Plains Wars. |
Bunkermeister | 13 May 2017 11:27 a.m. PST |
The US Army was underfunded and used a single shot rifle because they did not want the troops to waste ammunition. Many of those responsible for buying weapons were old fashioned and failed to embrace new technologies. Make bows out of wire and attach them to the figures, or buy separate weapons and put them with the figures, even if they are not in a shooting pose you can often modify the figures so they are at least holding the weapon. Civilians and Indians often had weapons as good or better than the Army. Mike Bunkermeister Creek Bunker Talk blog |
MajorB | 13 May 2017 1:12 p.m. PST |
I do not manage to set up a single army because many of my figurines of plain and rocky mountain Indians have neither bows or firearms !The bow is the minimum required in the army lists of this rule, except that many of my figurines do not even have, they have only weapons for melee !!! ??? Just assume that every figure that does not have either bow or firearm actually has a bow. |
Cerdic | 13 May 2017 1:27 p.m. PST |
I would do what MajorB suggests. Your figures all have bows, even if you can't see them…. |
Grelber | 13 May 2017 3:11 p.m. PST |
Mike B is correct, and not just about the US Army: officers who had grown up with single shot muzzle loading guns wee very concerned about the individual soldiers shooting off all their ammunition quickly. The Greek army was given a Maxim gun by a wealthy Greek for the 1897 war, and the army commander, Crown Prince Constantine, is reputed to have said something like, "But it uses so much ammunition, doesn't it?" The US cavalry selected a new carbine in the early 1870s. The commission selecting the gun was chaired by Brigadier General Alfred H. Terry; the cavalry representative was Major Marcus Reno. A key selection criteria was that it outrange rifles like the Winchester that the Indians were likely to have. It was successful in this, but as you note, it did have other drawbacks. Grelber P.S. I'm with the others, at least short term, declare that all warriors with spears, clubs or tomahawks actually have bows as well. Long term, you might get a rules amendment or add more bow carrying natives to your collection. G |
coopman | 13 May 2017 8:14 p.m. PST |
I'll probably use a modified version of the rules "The Men Who Would Be Kings" for any indian warfare miniatures games. |
mghFond | 13 May 2017 9:38 p.m. PST |
I've played a lot of games with that rules set and Blue Moon cav and Indians. Some of my Indians dont have guns or bows, just tomahawks or spears. No matter, I just allow them to still engage in fire combat. It's your game and your figs, do what you will with them. |
Paskal | 14 May 2017 2:04 a.m. PST |
Sorry, Maker. The Spenser was still in service the 23 January 1870 in the ranks of the 2nd U.S.Cavalry and the 13th U.S. Infantry on the Marias River for assassinate the innocent members of a friendly (alas…)band of about 230 mostly unarmed women and children of Piegan Blackfeet Indians … Sorry Cerdic but my figures have what they actually wear … I like historical realism above all and my figurines ‘will only use' the armament they have on them. Also I started to buy weapons for my hordes of Indian figurines, for firearms, no problems and as I know how to sculpt ‘Green Stuff' for a long time,I will just add 'Green Stuff' plums on them… For the bows, I will get them and I will modify the quiver with 'Green Stuff' to be as they were tribes by tribes … I will take as models my big 35/40 and 42 mm figures that are much closer to reality than the 25/28 and 30mm figures… And why only the Crows and Comanches can have spears in these rules and that this favors them, and not the other tribes? Is it because the spears of the Crows measured 12 feet and those of the comanches 14 feet ,while those of the other tribes are only 6 to 7.5 feet long, which is that in the same way always an advantage in the face of infantrymen or dismounted cavalrymen.? Nevertheless it would be necessary to find a system for how to budget the Indians figures without bows or firearms ..! This would be a nice thing for the game… |
Cerdic | 14 May 2017 3:52 a.m. PST |
Breton…fair enough! They are your figures to do with as you please! I, and several others, made the suggestion in response to your post because it sounded as though you wanted ideas to solve a problem! Maybe a different set of rules might be more appropriate for your requirements? |
sjwalker38 | 14 May 2017 4:58 a.m. PST |
FWIW I suspect that 'historical realism' is going to make for some rather dull games – other than the usual 'headline' actions, most of the Plains War skirmishes don't translate so readily to the tabletop. I started gaming the period (in 15mm) many years ago using 'Yellow Ribbon', which is still my favourite for 'realism' but have been having great fun more recently with MWWBK in 28mm, which lends itself readily to the tweaks needed to represent 'accurately' the almost unique nature of Plains Indian asymmetrical warfare. |
Atomic Floozy | 14 May 2017 5:43 a.m. PST |
I don't like these rules, the author makes some generalizations and abstractions that just aren't right. He seems to trap the Indians into using the weapons and tactics of the 1820s throughout the period. The Comanche lance is a good example. If your battle occurs before 1860, then lance armed Comanche is present. If your battle takes place in the 1870s, the lance is not used. |
Ed Mohrmann | 14 May 2017 9:43 a.m. PST |
Atomic Floozy is right about Comanche lances (NOT spears) Comanche tactics prior to the ACW were generally a lance- charge, then melee. Following the ACW (in which Comanche fought) it seems they realized that lance-charges against post-ACW firearms were going to cause lots of casualties - to the charging Comanches… |
Paskal | 14 May 2017 11:48 p.m. PST |
The 'historical realism' is the only thing that interests me on the tabletop, although it is difficult to translate it in terms of games. Same, for the appearance of the figures that for me, are not just markers … So I use only 25/35 mm or 40 / 42mm figures because as there are constant transformations, modifications and additions to make on it, it is easier with large figurines and more, that is seen. 'Yellow Ribbon', which is still also my favourite for 'realism' but it's for a small numbers of figures, for a skirmish game (Very good with the size of figurines I use) … But for something bigger, it takes a simpler but still interesting system, and there the best is the rules 'Too few to fight, too many to die' … Now I bet there are many other rules, very old rules of the 60s or 70s for example because often the old rules are the best… I would have to take a look … Nevertheless, it is a pity that there is not a system of budgeting Indian characters without bows or firearms in 'Too few to fight, too many to die' rules. This would have been a good thing for the game, although it would not necessarily have been historical (But in this case, I agree to make an exception,because we will never know the reality)… If one day someone finds the author should tell him about it. |
sjwalker38 | 15 May 2017 12:02 a.m. PST |
Maybe the author believes every warrior would have a bow or firearm as well as hand to hand weapons, so costing figures without missile weapons was unnecessary and unhistorical? |
Paskal | 15 May 2017 12:04 a.m. PST |
In my opinion the author believes every warrior would have a bow or firearm as well as hand to hand weapons … |
Paskal | 20 Sep 2017 11:11 a.m. PST |
Like the rules ‘Too few to fight, too many to die' the old rules for Wargames: Sebastopol, Sadowa & Sedan – 19th Century Warfare is also very good for the plain war… |
Dobber | 22 Sep 2017 7:03 a.m. PST |
+1 for dedicated melee troops? |
Paskal | 22 Sep 2017 8:19 a.m. PST |
You played the plain war with Sebastopol, Sadowa & Sedan – 19th Century Warfare ? |