ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa | 10 May 2017 11:31 p.m. PST |
Or just a potentially very expensive dust cover for your workbench? Probably like many I've seen 3D printers and the stuff people have produced and wondered is it worth it? I'm probably not an 'average' wargamer, but I'm time poor with no design skills, probably spend between GP£200 and 300 a year on actual miniatures. 15mm sci-fi and 1:144 WW2 are my main areas of activity. I do a lot of scratch building, I've 20-odd would-be drop pods, sitting in a box requiring hatches and detailing – being able to run-off 80 or more hatches therefore appeals. And there are definitely some sci-fi files on Thingiverse I'd like to have a play with. Can't say I'd print of a lot of WWII stuff, but I'm short of British softskins – are there publically available files for that kind of thing? |
sillypoint | 10 May 2017 11:43 p.m. PST |
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Bunkermeister | 11 May 2017 12:02 a.m. PST |
Not yet, but maybe someday soon. Bring it home from the shop in your flying car. Mike Bunkermeister Creek Bunker Talk blog |
John Treadaway | 11 May 2017 1:30 a.m. PST |
What the others said. I have a desk top inkjet printer and it gets (if I added it up) probably half an hour's use a year (accompanied by half an hour of swearing, ink cartridge changing and head cleaning). I suspect – with multi-hour print runs and, currently, quite rough print quality – I'd get even less use from one. In five years time? That might be a different story. Maybe… John T |
Patrick R | 11 May 2017 1:30 a.m. PST |
We're pretty much in the "Going from 16 pin to 32 pin matrix printers, and what is this "inkjet" I keep hearing about" days of 3D printing. You can produce workable things with 3D printers, but like the old matrix printers which produced legible text, you wouldn't trust it to print the family photos to keep in an album. It's good for stuff like scenery, vehicles etc, less so for figures as the detail level can leave to be desired. The good news is that the technology goes very fast, maybe in another few years we will have affordable, very high DPI printers that can crank out coloured models cheaply and quickly. I'm mostly waiting until something really exciting comes along. |
Mako11 | 11 May 2017 1:39 a.m. PST |
When they can eliminate the striations, let me know. Until then, no. |
tjkopena | 11 May 2017 2:58 a.m. PST |
If you just want to print figures and play games then it's not really worth it. Better to just buy figures. But if you do any terrain building, mission or game design, etc., then they're **extremely** useful tools. They just give so much power to augment scratchbuilding, rapidly and easily produce large quantities of pieces, etc.. Some examples I've written up---
Media Refinery, a pretty neat terrain board with a lot of bespoke 3D printing mixed in as a scratchbuilding tool: link The Molokh Gambit, an X-Wing narrative campaign featuring a ton of really cool 3D printed tokens and ships:
link I don't have a good writeup, but I use 3D printed components to run several really neat, fairly large 40k narrative events---shuttles crash, comms facilities get raided, civilians run around getting saved or slaughtered, etc.. 3D printing enables that by letting me pump out dozens or in some cases hundreds of these things for players to use.
Here's a long discussion & tutorial about using a 3D printer to make to-scale cargo pods for an X-Wing ship:
link This is a general, high level introduction to 3D printing from the perspective of wargaming applications:
link |
Jcfrog | 11 May 2017 4:02 a.m. PST |
The future is shops with this like with POD books and game mats!(;) and more. The individual market vhanges of the near future. The creatirs will enter a new freedom and era of possibilities. |
Cosmic Reset | 11 May 2017 4:26 a.m. PST |
I haven't been able to find a way to justify it yet. Right now it is a cool gizmo, but I can produce a 15mm master faster and at less cost by hand, than I can with 3D printing. Additionally, the one time tooling cost is less. |
Dwindling Gravitas | 11 May 2017 5:02 a.m. PST |
@tjkopena: That is some stunning stuff you've produced there! Bloody good job! |
SeattleGamer | 11 May 2017 5:30 a.m. PST |
Useful tool? Yes. Average wargamer? No. Lots of .STL files out there, and more coming. Depending on what you game, and in what scale, a 3D printer can produce lots of really useful stuff for your gaming … or not. You want to build an entire dungeon, or perhaps a fantasy or modern-day town of buildings and roads? Oh yes! A 3D printer can do so, and very well. You want to print 28-32mm figures? Not so much. I've seen massive armies of small vehicles that look pretty good. But the layering effect is still present for now, so larger items will not be perfectly smooth. I'm glad I got one (last November). I have backed a number of kickstarter terrain campaigns, and have lots of files now in my library. I am cranking out terrain, and enjoying the process and the end results. It should be cost effective, once I have generated enough pieces. That first piece cost me $300 USD for the machine and filament. That second piece brought the price down to $150 USD each. By the tenth piece, I was at $30 USD each. I am almost to 100 pieces, so my average price is now nearing $3 USD each … and that takes into account the cost of the printer and the filament. If I ignore the printer investment and focus on filament only, the average piece is somewhere near .25 cents each. Check out Thunder Chrome (post apocalypse) and Rampage (fantasy) and Precinct 187 (modern) kickstarters for examples of what can be made, and how good it looks. Decide for yourself if a 3D printer works for your own needs. It works for me. |
Tgerritsen | 11 May 2017 6:33 a.m. PST |
The funny thing is that many of your modern professional miniatures are going through a 3D printer at some point to create a master, but those are pro level printers that are out of reach of most people. I use mine to knock out custom game pieces and bases on a whim. I've made flight stands, custom interlocking hex tiles (like Hexon), pirate coins, board game pieces, and several miniatures that I use on my table with varying degrees of success. I can crank out 1/144 or 15mm tanks now pretty successfully on my FDM printer and they paint up great. However, if you aren't a sculptor, or if you cannot comprehend 3D modeling, then no, it is unlikely you will find much use for a 3D printer. SLA printers offer no printing lines now, but even the cheapest will run you over a $1,000 USD, and for a good one, more than $3,000. USD For the average gamer, you are better off using a service like shapeways to just buy custom built parts- but there again, the cost is somewhat tied to the material. FUD is super high quality, but far more expensive than the white material that everyone complains about. I have 3 3D printers- 2 FDM (the ones with lines) and I just got an SLA printer (the ones without lines) that I will be using for my higher end prints. The SLA printer is capable of cranking out mold masters for spin or resin casting at a very fine detail, but there's more effort to the setup and curing of parts. There was a fairly high learning curve for learning the printers, but I have found it mostly worthwhile. However, I'm also the kind of guy who loves to tinker and uses my printers for more than just gaming. I also know my way around a 3D modeling program well enough to bang out custom bits that I need or want. I also have backed some of the kickstarter terrain and building sets, and they look amazing. If you just want to hit a button and pull out a super high quality model a few hours later with little thought or effort, we're just not there yet for the average gamer. If you love to tinker, and don't mind trial and error and learning what it take to make it happen, you can make some awesome stuff that you will find use for. |
tjkopena | 11 May 2017 7:43 a.m. PST |
@Dwindling Gravitas: Thanks! Has been really fun, my printer has amplified my hobbying abilities and time quite considerably. Definitely not for everyone, but certainly useful. @TGerritsen: I don't want to hijack this thread with a sidenote, but would love to hear about your experiences printing molds for resin casting. I've only looked into it a little bit but am very interested. In my limited understanding so far though it seems to be limited because the material's not as strong to handle undercuts as typical poured RTV rubber molds can be. If you have a moment, I'd love any pointers you've found helpful, here or via tjkopena@gmail.com. Thanks! |
Tgerritsen | 11 May 2017 7:55 a.m. PST |
tjkopena, I literally got my SLA printer last night and haven't even started the resin casting yet, so I'll let you know how it goes. Luckily for me, I live right by Valiant Enterprises, and they are one of the premiere resign casters in the US, so I intend to use them as my molder and learn from them as I go. I'm happy to share what I learn. |
daoloth | 11 May 2017 8:20 a.m. PST |
There's a Kickstarter on the go now for a 3D printer that uses UV cured resin. The printing mechanism centres round an LCD which as I understand it is different from the way SLA printers go about it. The resolution claimed sounds like it is suitable for miniature work. link |
GarrisonMiniatures | 11 May 2017 9:04 a.m. PST |
If I could ever convert a solid model to a printable file then I would think about it… on the other hand the idea of UV cured resin I'm OK with – my name is on some of the early patents for the chemicals that catalyse the reaction. |
CeruLucifus | 11 May 2017 9:12 a.m. PST |
Matakishi's 3D printer section seems to have a very good example of what a skirmish or RPG gamer can practically expect at this point in the technology's life. He games in 28mm and prints furniture, staircases, covers for tea-lights, some suitable fantasy figures (=oversize, exaggerated proportions, simplified details), scale raised platforms (gallows, docks). link |
Mutant Q | 11 May 2017 9:56 a.m. PST |
It depends on what you want to do. I've made some very nice terrain pieces (e.g. ruins, dungeon tiles, bits for sci-fi buldings) with my Monoprice Maker Select, an inexpensive starter printer. Besides figuring out the nuances of the printer software settings or materials, I find that the larger the subject, the better the outcome. Would I trust it for smaller or highly detailed figures? No, the resolution is not that good. However, I am seeing that some of high-quality resin-based printers are getting down to the level where hobbyists can afford them. Those I'm looking forward to. |
darthfozzywig | 11 May 2017 11:49 a.m. PST |
Lots of great info here – thanks. |
Coyotepunc and Hatshepsuut | 11 May 2017 1:03 p.m. PST |
Bashytubits does a lot of 3D printing work, and I have discussed it at length wirh him. It definitely 's not for the casual user yet. The machines require maintenance and babysitting. |
Brian Smaller | 11 May 2017 7:55 p.m. PST |
Well it would probably do more damage than my average dice throws. |
UshCha | 12 May 2017 1:55 a.m. PST |
Look at 3d Printing as Advanced Scratch Building. It still takes ages to learn to use the tools and patience to make the model. At the end you get as many as you want for minimal cost. If you are a WARGAMER the striations are not an issue at wargames ranges they are invisible. IF you are a MODELLER looking at 2" away you can see them. Most of my kit is 3D printed and looks bettre and is more damage tolerant (except for MG's on the FUD) than metal cast (all at 1/144) and if that is a problem I print small part spares on Shapeways. If you are a MODELLER then the min dimetion for decent material like SWF and PLA is 1mm diameter which may be a problem. |
Tgerritsen | 12 May 2017 11:54 a.m. PST |
Yes, none of these printers are fire and forget. You don't have to check in on your laser or ink jet printer to make sure they don't screw up (usually). You definitely do with a 3D printer. I have let prints run all day and had no problems, and other times I've had a piece of extraneous PLA or Poly fall on to the print object and create a bump that the printer then just happily keeps printing over, ruining the print. It took me about a year playing with my old Replicator (my first printer) before I felt really comfortable with what it can and cannot do. My other printers had less learning curve, but then again, I knew more going in. I'm amazed that at table distance, my FDM parts look just fine. My FDM printers are both fairly high quality, so the lines are less noticeable to begin with, but you can still see them if you hold them about 3" away from your face. However, on the table, you can't really tell them apart from other manufactured models I have. I did my first test print last night with my new SLA printer and the part is amazing. I'll post pictures next week. The parts require more fiddling post printing (alcohol bath followed by UV curing) but they look like a fully assembled high quality plastic model. No lines. Really stunning. |
haywire | 12 May 2017 4:52 p.m. PST |
For terrain, I can get away with scratch-building or what I would really like is a silhouette cameo or even better a lasercutter to cut out building templates or MDF bases. And really I can do all that with only knowing some 2D software. I have been debating this for a year now. For the most part I have been looking at the Form 2, but in regards to my 3D needs I am not sure I really need it. I am pretty good at square and simple curvatures, so I can do spaceships well enough, control panels and buildings and furniture. I can't do people or animals using 3D sculpting. I just don't have the experience. |
ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa | 13 May 2017 11:05 a.m. PST |
Interesting stuff, the original title did include the word 'yet', but it made it too long! I'm aware of some of the limitations of current 3D printers and personally I'd never really planned doing miniatures – I have plenty as it is. What it would do most is 15mm and 1:144 vehicles (if I can get the files), and probably lots of turrets, I like turrets, and have a number of on-going projects where they are required. Spaceships and micro-scale stuff would probably also weasel on to the to do list. I can easily understand that they aren't 'plug and play' and need 'babysat', but I'd be interested to know just how difficult set up is and how finicky they are to keep running? I've set up lab instruments in my time and while long winded the process is usually well documented and equally they usually run okay if looked after right. I've also looked in passing at laser cutters, but to be honest they seem even worse than 3D printers in certain respects and I don't have an appropriate space. |
Fonzie | 13 May 2017 1:06 p.m. PST |
I have just printed a DAK panzerdivision and two 8th Army Armoured Divisions in 15mm for Rapid Fire. The Desert War is a project that I wanted to do for a long time already but the cost of several full divisions in resin or plastic kept me from it. My 3D printer has made it possible at a fraction of the cost. The files are available free of charge on Thingiverse and the cost of the filament and electricity needed to print is (rough and fast calculation) at least 10 to 15 times less than what the same models in resin or plastic would have cost me. So for me, yes, my 3D printer is a usefull tool and well worth the investment that wasn't enormous to begin with. |
UshCha | 13 May 2017 2:57 p.m. PST |
I had fun with my replicator 2 but it turned out it had been assembled wrong. Early on it had a card reader go but a replacement board was easy to fit and under guarantee. Had to remove the nozzle and clear it a couple of times by heating it up with a small gas torch. Set up in PLA was a non event. Still using the manufactures settings even with 3rd party filament. Made about 3 build plates they do become useless after a few hundred hours of use. They become too scratched to use. 8mm Lexon and 20 minutes gets a new one. Not too much effort. |