forwardmarchstudios | 10 May 2017 3:38 p.m. PST |
This is why batteries shouldn't be allowed to interpenetrate other units.
In other news, my new figure line is coming along great : ) |
Yellow Admiral | 10 May 2017 4:18 p.m. PST |
If the road is the entire width of the table like that, I see no reason interpenetration should be a problem. :-) It's pretty cool to see miniatures laid out in a way that gives the impression of the real thing. I hope to see these marching across layouts similar to Bruce Weigel's someday. If I remember, your gaming cloths and buildings are already a good start. - Ix
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Glengarry5 | 10 May 2017 7:53 p.m. PST |
Is that a Russian battery? No fair! They're, what, 16 cannon to a battery!? |
forwardmarchstudios | 10 May 2017 7:58 p.m. PST |
No, French. 12 guns. There are two caissons per gun. 12#er's could have up to three, although some caissons would be running between the battery and the division parc. In the picture, only the first 12 bases are limbers. After that there are 12 bases with two caissons per base.
The limbers and caissons came out really, really nice. IMHO : ) But seriously, you can look at them and tell exactly what they are, how many horses are pulling them, etc. There are ~75 riders, and when the artillery guns arrive there will be ~75 more figures, or 150 total artillerists per battery, which from my research is about right. The other units on there are a 450 figure battalion and a 112 figure squadron, for reference. The buildings are also in 1:1 scale. I based them off the houses in Essling and an 18th century German church. 1:1 scale figs really changes your perspective of the battlefield. The artillery battery definitely looks a lot more threatening to the infantry than it does in bigger scales. |
von Winterfeldt | 11 May 2017 1:07 a.m. PST |
what space to you allow for a battery, one gun per 10 meters?? |
deadhead | 11 May 2017 1:16 a.m. PST |
What will be even more impressive is, indeed, once you have the battery set up….. "only" 12 guns…..and see just how much artillery park is behind in support. Plus how big a target that makes! |
Gratian | 11 May 2017 1:32 a.m. PST |
But remember there was a lot of space between the guns and a lot of space between the guns and the supporting equipment behind them. "In battle the French kept only one caisson per gun with the battery. "The rest of the caissons were used in a running shuttle service between the firing battery and the artillery parks when in action" (Kiley-"Artillery of the Napoleonic Wars 1792 -1815" p 110) The ammunition wagons were placed approx. 50 m behind the line of cannons and limbers. This distance varied between armies and situations on the battlefield. If it was only possible the ammunition wagons were given every protection: hollow ground, trees, buildings etc. Approx. 50 m behind the first line of wagons was the second line. If the guns were of heavier caliber there was also third line of wagons, placed 100 m behind the second." link |
forwardmarchstudios | 11 May 2017 3:07 a.m. PST |
Glad you guys find them interest. I was actually somewhat taken aback by how long the artillery column would stretch on the road. I'm not sure what it will mean for gaming at this scale; I think it will make artillery placement a lost more important than in more abstracted scales, that's for certain. To answer some of the questions from above; The artillery pieces (which are on the way, so pics soon-ish…) are designed so the modeler can either keep them on a 3-gun base or cut them up into individual guns. The bases give ~21-24 feet of space from one gun to the next, or about 7 meters. I arrived at this number as a compromise between a lot of different factors (including cost- the bigger the base, the exponentially more expensive the model!). The second picture, of the limbers and caissons, is not deployed at correct depth, that is right. I just had it there for show. The double caissons may not have always been present; I designed the caissons so that they can be snipped in half very easily, so you can place as many caissons as you want in the battery footprint. From what I understand that footprint was about 100-150 meters form the guns to the rear-most units. At 1:1 ground scale here, that is between 120mm and 180mm. I would like to get the exact numbers some day. Gratian- do you have a picture of "ammunition wagons?" Those, and general covered supply type-wagons, are about to have their day in the sunlight. I saw some models of Austrian wagons in Les Invalides a few years ago- they actually had eagles painted on them, which ID'd them as Austrian. The model makers could have been alive during the Napoleonic era, so I'd be interested if this was really a thing. |
Marc at work | 11 May 2017 3:44 a.m. PST |
My heart (and reading) suggests units were more flexible than our fixed based models, and so inter-penetration was possible. Real life soldiers are capable of flowing around other troops far more easily than our units can. SO I think it is always interesting to consider how units inter-penetrate in rules, which is often linked to ground scales and time scales. After all, D'Erlon's corps passed through the grand battery, but that had to stop firing. But in game terms, how long does it take. But re OP – looks really good – to be encouraged |
McLaddie | 11 May 2017 6:52 a.m. PST |
SO I think it is always interesting to consider how units inter-penetrate in rules, which is often linked to ground scales and time scales. After all, D'Erlon's corps passed through the grand battery, but that had to stop firing. But in game terms, how long does it take. Not very long. Troops were practiced at it. It's not like D'Elron's veteran troops went, "Gosh almighty, we've never had to do this before…" Compared to your battalions in line, those artillery batteries are going to pack a lot of firepower on a small front, which is what Clausewitz pointed out. |
Trajanus | 11 May 2017 7:53 a.m. PST |
For God's Sake, will you people stop posting photos of Bruce Weigle's terrain boards! :o( |
deadhead | 11 May 2017 8:57 a.m. PST |
That is not a serious wargames table. There is not one single pint glass, no rulers, dice, or note pads, no rule books, no one's phone…nothing left on it, to clutter it. Naw……the dice throwers could not use that. Going back to the top picture. Very impressive and that is only one battery's ammo wagons, not the guns themselves or a single chap to serve them. But, on a good day, a dry road, no one blacking the road ahead, how long would it take the whole train here to pass a given point? Not that long….even back then units could get a shift on? Brilliant posting idea |
Osage2017 | 11 May 2017 8:59 a.m. PST |
The links in this discussion are super cool ! THANKS !! My God, in 1:1 scale things looks a little bit different …. |
jwebster | 11 May 2017 12:34 p.m. PST |
Artillery batteries didn't move in that way on the field There weren't enough horses to move everything at once with 4-6 horses per limber. So guns would be moved up with a limited amount of ammunition, then the same horses would be used to move the caissons around. A couple of "train" units would support artillery for a whole Corps. This was the French method of organization, which I believe was adopted by most by the end of the wars. The train also consisted of heavy wagons, which would be in the artillery park, away from the action, from which caissons would be loaded up for re-supplying batteries. When on march, there would be enough horses (if you were lucky) for 2 horses per wagon or limber John |
HidaSeku | 11 May 2017 1:00 p.m. PST |
Those 1:1 scale units look great. Wow! |
forwardmarchstudios | 11 May 2017 1:10 p.m. PST |
Jwebster- Honestly, I'm no expert on Napoleonic artillery. But, no matter what the historically correct deployment might have looked like, you can recreate it with the models I'm working on. I've got a list of up-coming codes which will include 2 and 4 horse teams, as well as double teams. These will be very easy to do. These could also be painted as oxen, if relevant to a given scenario. I started with six horse teams for everything because I had to start somewhere for the initial release. That said, even if you removed half of the limbers from the first two pictures, the line of wagons would still be 2/3s the size. |
Timbo W | 11 May 2017 3:22 p.m. PST |
could you do the battery deployed at 'correct' spacing compared with infantry battalions in line and attack column? Would be interesting to see how they compare! |
forwardmarchstudios | 11 May 2017 4:36 p.m. PST |
Timbo- Here's a picture. Not the best.
You can see the battery is almost as wide as two 450 man battalions. This is at over 10m distance between guns (for reference, the bases are 5 meters wide, horses a meter each, some space on either side, etc.). So, this might be a little too wide, but it is close. Depth from limbers to he caissons is ~120m |
McLaddie | 11 May 2017 6:17 p.m. PST |
What's that, a Russian battery of twelve guns?? 10 meters are from what reference? I've seen five to six yards or 15 to 20 FEET. |
Lion in the Stars | 13 May 2017 7:29 a.m. PST |
Your 1:1 battalions/squadrons/batteries always blow me away, Forward March! |
Timbo W | 13 May 2017 7:46 a.m. PST |
Great, thanks fms, So about the width of a 600 man bn in 3 ranks line approximately – very neat! |