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"In the Indian Wars range..." Topic


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Paskal Supporting Member of TMP09 May 2017 11:08 a.m. PST

Howdy All

The generic Indians have never existed, except in the imagination of the sculptors of figurine masters, they must not exist with our figurines …

Uniformology research is my passion for decades and it's also a passion to look for this for the different Plain and Rocky Mountain Indian tribes, a clue here, another by that, even when there are no uniforms, but you understand what I mean…

Let's find and find the details of dress and hairstyle for each tribe, to carry out the usual transformations…

In the Indian Wars range of the old 25 mm Frontier, for plains and rocky mountains Indians we found :

6 variants of mounted warriors with 2 poses of ponies.

According to the author of the modeler's mart catalog, the bodies of the references of 25 mm figures of plain and rocky moutain indians are suitable for all tribes (Sioux – cheyennes – crows – blackfoot and nez perce!

What seems strange to me, do you agree with me?

Here is the interest of the Old Frontier Miniature figures.
Examples :

– Ref. 21F MTD INDIAN WITH BOW (1 variant ?) Body valid for the Sioux – cheyennes – crows – blackfoot and Nez perce since there are no collars around the neck or breast plate of bone ‘hair pipe', do you agree with me?

– Ref. 21G MTD INDIAN WITH LANCE (1 variant ?) Body only valid for the Sioux and cheyennes because of the breast plate of bone ‘hair pipe', do you agree with me?

– Ref. 21H MTD INDIAN WITH RIFLE (1 variant ?) Body only valid for the crows or blackfoot since there are necklaces around the neck and the ermine tails, do you agree with me?

– Ref. 21I MTD INDIAN CRADLING RIFLE (1 variant ?) Body only valid for the Sioux and cheyennes because of the breast plate of bone ‘hair pipe', do you agree with me?

– Ref. 21J MTD INDIAN FIRING BOW UNDER HORSES NECK (1 variant ?) Body valid for the Sioux – cheyennes – crows – blackfoot and Nez perce since there are no collars around the neck or breast plate of bone ‘hair pipe', do you agree with me?

– Ref. 21K MTD INDIAN WITH LANCE & SHIELD (1 variant ?) Body only valid for the crows – blackfoot and Nez perce since there are necklaces around the neck, do you agree with me?

5 variants of warriors on foot.

– Ref. 21A DISMTD INDIAN WITH RIFLE (1 variant ?) Body valid for the Sioux – cheyennes – crows – blackfoot and Nez perce since there are no collars around the neck or breast plate of bone ‘hair pipe', do you agree with me?

– Ref. 21B DISMTD INDIAN WITH LANCE & SHIELD (1 variant ?) Body only valid for the Sioux and cheyennes because of the breast plate of bone ‘hair pipe', do you agree with me?

– Ref. 21C DISMTD INDIAN WITH LANCE & TOMAHAWK (1 variant ?) Body only valid for the crows or blackfoot since there are necklaces around the neck and the ermine tails, do you agree with me?

– Ref. 21D DISMTD INDIAN FIRING BOW (1 variant ?) Body only valid for the Sioux and cheyennes because of the breast plate of bone ‘hair pipe', do you agree with me?

– Ref. 21E DISMTD INDIAN WITH TOMAHAWK (1 variant ?) Body only valid for the crows – blackfoot and Nez perce since there are necklaces around the neck, do you agree with me?

The hair pipe breastplate was worn by men of many tribes, not just the Lakota and Cheyenne and it is a comanche invention that dated 1854 …

The Crows, Blackfoot, Nez perce and the other tribes of the north did not use them, It is well known, they carried in their place the famous necklaces and it was even with this kind of detail that they could recognize themselves.

There is 7 variants of heads for these plains and rocky mountains Indians:

1 with ‘trailer' war bonnet valid only for the Sioux or cheyennes, do you agree with me?

1 with ‘straight up' war bonnet valid only for the blackfoot, the nez perce, the cheyenne ‘Dog Soldiers' and for a Warrior Societies of the Dakota (Eastern Sioux), do you agree with me?

1 with 4 braids and a feather only for the Sioux or cheyennes since there are no pompadour and the front is not swept upwards, do you agree with me?

1 with 2 braids and 2 feathers only for the Sioux or cheyennes since there are no pompadour and the front is not swept upwards, do you agree with me?

1 with No braids a pompadour and 5 feathers only for blackfoot or nez perce since there are a pompadour, do you agree with me?

1 with 2 braids a pompadour and 2 feathers only for blackfoot or nez perce since there are a pompadour, do you agree with me?

1 with No braids No pompadour and 2 feathers only for the crows since the front is swept upwards,do you agree with me?

This is something I read a long time ago, unfortunately I have not noticed my source and I can not tell you where, but I have a very good memory to remember what I read on the other hand I never remember what book it is, when it does not belong to me, but I'll check…

The heads, with their headdress and hairstyles, are distinctive to specific tribes, it's a another advantage of the Old Frontier Miniatures …

The warbonnets were a distinction of honored warriors and probably a few men, for example, at the Little Big Horn, there are 120 Cheyenne tepees – which makes a maximum of 240 warriors – according to Cheyenne sources, only 12 warriors wore war bonnets and ten of these were of the type with trailer and two of the type without trailer but no the ‘straight up' warbonnet style, because in 1876 there is no more cheyenne ‘Dog Soldiers'…

In conclusion, this gives us 1 Cheyenne warrior on 20 with warbonnet !

There are 4 main types of warbonnets:
1/- The long type with trailer.
2/- The short type without trailer.
3/- The type Halo, a short type with eagle feathers fanned around the face in an oval shape specific to the Crows.
4/- The Straight-up type like those of the Blackfoot.
I know that the pompadours was only a hairdressing style of the northern tribes like the blackfoot and Nez perce.

But the Crow who have their hair with the front swept upwards which forms a characteristic crest or a pompadour or both ?

I do not think that the Lakota ansd Cheyennes wore their hair of that way, too dangerous in combat because of mistakes …

It is very interesting to look for the real and historical appearances of the Indians to be able to differentiate them on the tables of games…

In the Nos. 113 and 114 of the UK Foremost Wargames Magazines, it also talks about the outfits of the various tribes of the plains and on the website of WG there is much information about the outfits of the different tribes of the Rocky Mountains that I like as much as the Plain Tribes.

So the ‘Crow Warriors hairstyle has the forlock combed back and two small braids forward of the ears.

The rest of the hair is allowed to fall loose down the back.

Similar styles were used by the nez perce and shoshoni but not by the Blackfoot ?

So the Blackfoot did not have this kind of hairstyles ???

What kind of hairstyles did they have then ?

The one of the Sioux, Cheyennes, Comanches ect ..?

But However there are many Crows who carried also the crest as we see in the M.A.A. # 163, why does it not have anything to do with what I have read ?

Cloth leggings are worn with beaded panels, is a style favored by the crows.

Multiple strand necklaces were worn by the crows but the nez perce , shoshoni and the Blackfoot they wore them?

The Crows that do not carry the bone breast worn by Sioux and other …

And the nez perce , shoshoni and the Blackfoot they wore them?

Also note that oddly the Crows are always shown as wearing shirt and leggings ???

Never almost naked like cheyennes and lakota ???

In summer for example ?

But I have Indians figures of all the tribes that interest me in above the 30 mm and they will serve me to transform my 25mm figures, because the big figurines are always more realistic …

I know there were no uniforms among the Indians, but in seeking, one finds fashions, it is the same thing and at all times in all the armies where the uniforms did not exist.

Now if some members of this forum can help me with good additional informations … I am taker.

79thPA Supporting Member of TMP09 May 2017 11:19 a.m. PST

Get a copy of "Mystic Warriors of the Plains" by Thomas Mails. You won't regret it.

McKinstry Fezian09 May 2017 11:27 a.m. PST

I doubt any manufacturer of wargames figures at 25-28mm and under can afford to do specific figures by tribe if it would require different molds for each.

Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP09 May 2017 11:31 a.m. PST

Forget the molds. The sculpting alone would kill you.

Smokey Roan Inactive Member09 May 2017 11:49 a.m. PST

Very good points.

But I would think the most obvious and glaring inaccuracies matter.

Whether a figure, who shows most of the Plains traits, has a bone breastplate, for example, is nothing to worry about. He got it from someone he killed, or his wife he acquired from another tribe made it for him.

The Crow "Pompadour" is awesome. I always wanted one. But recently, when I decided I had a job and girlfriend so it didnt matter if I had a "McGarret" doo from Hawaii 5-0, turns out I was too late. When my long hair was cut, turns out I dont have as much any more. I look like Carl from "Slingblade" :( But in reality, how many crows were in battle with perfect pompadours? They had no gel, no Jerry Curl, and I'd bet that they didnt wash their hair the day of battle, and most had "Bed head".

The photos of my ex wife's family going back to the mid 1800's (all Cherokee, plus they married into Sioux, Miamis, Osage and lots more various Indians who migrated to the successful and prosperous Cherokee Nation.) NONE sport any "typical" look of any particular tribe. They all wear a combo of American clothing, and various Indian dress. Some wore American boots, others moccasins Some wore button down shirts, others pull over tunics. Hair was random. Long hair, braids, short hair, whatever. . All wore American pants, belts, with small Indian beaded pouches and knife sheaf's.

Curiously, My ex's only non Indian blood was black, from an escaped slave who went to Tahlequah and was then enslaved by a Cherokee farmer, freed, and became prosperous and evidently porked my G G Grandmother In Law. And a Irish ex Army veteran who moved there (and gave my ex just enough Irish DNA so she was not only a 6-1 mean Indian, but a 6-1 mean Indian/Irish, who went on the warpath anytime she drank the Crown Royale)

also remember, Indians probably were not in their "Friday Night On The Town" best very often. How many Sioux living on the Reservations, who then left to join Sitting Bull in Montana, were clad in traditional garb? (after years of living with other tribes, and trading for American goods including clothes).

How many plains Indians were suffering bad times? (When tribes fought against the US, it wasnt because they were living in salad days) Most were probably threadbare, as they were being hounded by troops and had no time to worry about their pimp rep in terms of style.


I'd say, unless you are doing a conflict that was early, the basic realities will be enough. No mohawks for your Red Sticks, no "medicine man" pose (That famous Marx 54mm figure wearing Buffalo Head with horns.

Personally, I would LOVE to see more muzzleloader armed Indians in all tribes and periods. Only the plains warriors, in the 1870's, sported Winchester Lever Action 30-30s.


BTW, I HAVE to get my photobucket working, so I can show you pics of my cousin Cheyenne (Not a real cousin, my ex wife's cousin, which matters a lot 'cause I'm trying to ..uh…go fishing with her). She took pics, wearing traditional Cherokee clothing from the early 1800's. Awesome. In black and white. She looks HOT in deerskin!

M C MonkeyDew09 May 2017 11:49 a.m. PST

It's a bit like fielding your regulars in their dress blues.

Personal accounts often mention not being able to identify tribal affiliation until someone spoke. It was all a bit nerve wracking until then…and that from folks raised by Indians as well as settlers/soldiers.

While environment certainly played a role in who wore what where, and buffalo head dresses were more popular on the southern plains than elsewhere, "generic" Indians are not always that far off the mark.

Old Glory Sponsoring Member of TMP09 May 2017 1:48 p.m. PST

Humans tend to mimic and Copy what they see and like in spite of the considered "norms"

Regards
Russ Dunaway

Yellow Admiral Supporting Member of TMP09 May 2017 5:13 p.m. PST

American Indians first, Celts next. :-)

- Ix

Personal logo jdginaz Supporting Member of TMP09 May 2017 5:58 p.m. PST

"Only the plains warriors, in the 1870's, sported Winchester Lever Action 30-30s"

Hmm Smokey, nobody had a 30-30 in 1870 since they weren't developed until 1894. ;)

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP09 May 2017 10:57 p.m. PST

I know there were no uniforms among the Indians, but in search, one finds characteristics fashions of clothing or of appearances, tribes by tribes, it is the same thing at all times in all the armies where the uniforms did not exist.

So my only solution is reading – I'm still waiting for other books including a copy of "Mystic Warriors of the Plains" by Thomas Mails – and the Green Stuff …

Thank God I have in the past made many masters for WWII figurines, and then carried out a lot of transformations on the 25 mm plain Indian figures of Old Glory, but before what is mostly needed is specialized documentation on that.


And courage!

In terms of resistance,Celts first, American Indians next, Centuries and Centuries of Resistances for them and that will continue I hope.

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP10 May 2017 2:12 a.m. PST

Since there is no notification system by e-mail on this forum, please contact me by e-mail if you have just posted a message,thank you.

22breton@orange.fr

It is strange that such an important website does not have a notification system by e-mail?

Old Glory Sponsoring Member of TMP10 May 2017 6:14 a.m. PST

I plan in the future at some point to do a whole 28mm range of "mountain men" -- this would include all of the mountain region indians?? The Blackfoot, flathead,etc??
BIG PROBLEM I have had so far is to find any real substantial reference or difference between the tribes.

Regards
Russ Dunaway

Rallynow Supporting Member of TMP10 May 2017 6:19 a.m. PST

Second the "Mystic Warriors of the Plains" by Thomas E. Mails. I have used it a lot when painting my Plains Indians. Very good source. Highly recommended.

link

Personal logo The Virtual Armchair General Sponsoring Member of TMP10 May 2017 8:54 a.m. PST

Smokey Roan +1

TVAG

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP10 May 2017 10:24 p.m. PST

'BIG PROBLEM I have had to find any real substantial reference or difference between the tribes. ??? '

Russ, There are among all the tribes when one deigns to seek them …

Everything especially in hairstyles, wearing necklaces around the neck or breast plate of the bone 'hair pipe' on the chest, of the types of warbonnets carried by the leaders ect …

See my post on 09 May 2017 12:08 p.m.

Yes Rallynow,"Mystic Warriors of the Plains", yes I am waiting for it with others and I have others, but not in English, so now I can get an idea of the dress modes of the main tribes, very important For me for the wargame …

For the Apaches the problem is different.

In any case I have masses of 25 / 35mm apache figurines, the problem is different, we only find chiricahua!?

The other Apaches, the figurine Masters sculptors do not know them?

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP13 May 2017 3:47 a.m. PST

In conclusion the Frontier Miniature 25 mm figurines were the best for the plain & rocky mountain Indians and even for the chiricahua apaches and seminoles indians because the one who carved their masters had understood everything …

Ah I forgot,I put several ads to buy figurines,please see if you have to sell …

Paskal Supporting Member of TMP29 May 2017 8:04 a.m. PST

Well I will be able to deepen the subject because I bought the following books …

- Ritual & Honour -warriors of the north american plains by Max Carocci.
- The Mystic Wariors of The Plains by Thomas E;Mails.
- The warriors of the Plains by Colin Taylor.

I already have a lot of books on the subject, but then I think it is good and when I will have increased my knowledge on the subject, I will make masters for 25 / 30mm figuines as in the good old times…

We are never better served than by ourselves …

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