"Every Marine a rifleman no more?" Topic

"Defense Secretary Ash Carter shocked the military last summer when he called for boosting the military's high-tech force by finding civilians who already have those vital skills like cyber security and offer them "lateral entry" into the military — a chance to skip boot camp and put on a uniform as a mid-career rank from Day One.

In effect, he suggested having a Marine Corps that included "Marines," pinned with a staff sergeant's rocker, who had never been to boot camp and spent no time in the junior tanks. Marines scattered across the force who had little knowledge of Marine culture and whose colleagues quietly questioned their status as a "real Marine."

Nobody in the military was more skeptical than the Marines.

Yet now as the Corps begins planning to grow the force significantly during the next several years, the controversial idea is back on the table, Marine Corps Times has learned. One way or the other, the Marine Corps needs those high-tech capabilities. Currently there are big shortages in some of those career fields. It's a top priority for today's leaders…"
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Amicalement
Armand

Sometimes you have to take what you can get, at other times what has been considered essential in the past is seen to be, at best, outdated now.

I can't comment on whether either of the two above are true (lack of knowledge/experience) but see no reason for this type of initiative to be 'wrong.' After all, if any major company recruits a mid to high ranking specialist they don't expect that specialist to spend the first few months learning to be a tea person, labourer, secretary or clerk (or other entry level job – and accepting that some jobs like secretary can be available as both high and low level!) – they expect them to do the specific job they've been hired for.

If you need cyber security guys, hire them as outside contractors. Don't put rank on them without them first doing the mule work.

I would venture to suggest a quick glance at Crete and the early war campaign in the Med. Every non-combatant, however qualified and useful, is a potential liability when deployed.. think about it.

I was offered this lateral entry almost 30 years ago--at that time it did not include skipping Boot

This plan will not work, for the simple fact that anyone with the skills will know how much they are worth. Unless the program includes the absolving of college debt, the pay per rank will never compete with a civilian job.

Make them civilian employees of the DOD; if they didn't earn the Eagle, Globe, & Anchor then they don't get to wear it.

Makes sense to me, the military with the way the world is going needs brains as well as brawn. Pretty sure they'll not be on the front line if they are doing cyber warfare. For what they are going to be doing, they don't need boot camp. I can't see why if they do sign up and serve the military how they are not allowed to wear the badges.

Have them join the Navy. Then seconded them to the Marines like they do with medics.

The UK allows for a shorter commissioning course for those professionally qualified officers such as medical doctors.

Personally I think the only way uniform would work is if they were reservists moving to a full time role but then that means they would have passed basic.

Otherwise, there are plenty of civilians that work alongside the military.

"The President's Own" Marine Corps Band members don't go to boot camp and go in as E-6 Staff Sergeants.

Sounds like someone's trying to be cheap. Civilian contractors in tech fields command much higher pay than rank-and-file marines. By offering them a short-cut to become marines and the pride that comes with the tradition, maybe they'll settle for the meager compensation.

Of course, the price is that it diminishes the Marine Corps brand for everyone else.

mad monkey 1 has it right.

Cyber, like almost every other function in today's military, is a joint endeavor. Let's keep the Marines special. Let the cyber geeks enter into the other services: Army, Navy, Air Force. The Marines can draw upon the other services for cyber support.

They should be civilian contractors.
I design and build business systems. It's a totally different profession to soldiering.
I doubt I could even stand upright with the load soldiers carry.
Similarly, the stuff I do is something the average soldier is likely to struggle with.

Not sure where the President's own not having to go through bootcamp came from. I know I had to go through bootcamp. I could try out before hand but still had to do my time at PI.

Boot camp seems to serve as a surrogate fraternity hazing ritual that everyone who undergoes wants to see inflicted on everyone who comes after. But its time may have come and gone for future warfare needs.

BC aims to break down a boy and remake him into a man. It may offend the PC crowd and their delicate sensibilities, but toughening up a recruit not only physically but mentally through so-called "abuse" may well save his life in the unforgiving crucible of war. At the very least it "builds character."

paulgenna see
link

"Members do not undergo recruit training but report directly to Marine Barracks Washington in Washington, D.C., to begin their duties. On-site training in necessary military subjects is provided in a structured program to help new members transition from civilian to active duty military life. Upon enlistment, members are immediately appointed to the rank of Staff Sergeant (E-6), which allows the band to offer salaries commensurate with comparable civilian organizations."

"Boot camp seems to serve as a surrogate fraternity hazing ritual that everyone who undergoes wants to see inflicted on everyone who comes after. But its time may have come and gone for future warfare needs."

Wrong. Boot camp is designed to put the recruits under stress and weed out the ones that can't handle it. Better to break them in a controlled environment than in combat. An important side benefit is it provides basic military education and fitness training to new military personnel.

So what kind of stress will the cyber warrior encounter that boot camp will prepare her/him for?

Sentimentality about manly badges and titles is by its very nature irrational. If marine riflemen are needed teach them, but to the marine fighting in the RV realm he won't need the rifle…if she does then having a rifle won't mean a damn bit of difference, that battle was already lost.

You're assuming that the cyber ops can be done from a remote location.

I'd be willing to bet that the Bin Laden raid had a small team of computer "dorks" that were right on the heels of the guys with all the guns.

Was that dork named Artoo Detoo, plugging into a com Link? I really doubt this is the sort of cyber warrior they are trying to recruit. This more about intelligence and spook stuff. Dull stuff.

It is the old turf war of interservice rivalry and budget burnishing. Cyberwar is the new frontier and the Marine brass don't want to see themselves left out of a role in it…like their own aircraft, they don't want to rely on the new Cyber command that will probably come into being. It will still be fought from physically safe zones.

There are sooo many ways that the scenarios where "they won't have to fight" can go wrong, from glitch to massive cock-up and disaster that it is truly laughable to hear the arguments for dork status.. when things are ed up.. the modern equivalent of the "Gatlings jammed and the Colonel's dead" ..the dork will be a liability and you will need twice as many riflemen to pull his balls out the fire…

I seem to recall the British considering relaxing some of the rules about dress codes for their cyber-warfare personnel.

The kind of person who is good at that sort of thing may not like the ideas of short hair for example…

Dress code is one thing. Physical fitness and ability to keep a cool head under fire is another.

Not sending a troop through boot camp and sending them to a combat zone is criminal, and should result in wrongful death charges being brought to whoever sent them there when things go horribly wrong.

Because there WILL be a time when something goes horribly wrong. Running a computer dork through boot camp/Officer training and then giving them a decent pay grade is only about 6 months time away from the computers. And with OCS, they could still be doing computer stuff in the evenings (probably).

But putting a computer dork into a uniform without boot or OCS is putting the computer dork's life at risk.

If the person in question is never going to be deployed anywhere more exciting than Surrey, how?

I know several USN radiomen that have combat badges for deployments (including purple hearts and interesting bullet scars), and if it wasn't for the fact that I was non-deployable I would have been seconded to the US Army in Iraq as an admin guy for at least 6 months, and probably two separate 179-day tours.

As it was, a Chief Yeoman I know missed the attack on the US Embassy by 5 minutes: If his meeting had lasted 5 minutes longer, the rocket would have gone right through him. And that Chief was assigned to a Personal Security Detachment, in addition to his admin duties. Had some nasty PTSD after the fact, too, I think I ended up buying him most of a case of beers over a couple weeks.

So it's NEVER safe to assume that a computer dork (or admin/personnel dork, in my case) will never be assigned to anything more exciting than the middle of a Safe Country(tm). "Needs of the Service" and all that WILL conspire to put someone in harm's way, so therefore they must be trained to protect themselves.

"If the person in question is never going to be deployed anywhere more exciting than Surrey, how?" If that's the case, why put them into uniform? In fact, keeping them as a civilian will help keeping them from deploying, as they can quit rather than go where told as soldiers must.

So it's NEVER safe to assume that a computer dork (or admin/personnel dork, in my case) will never be assigned to anything more exciting than the middle of a Safe Country(tm). "

Like the civilian workers still on board HMS Prince of Wales when she sailed to the Battle of the Denmark Strait, seventy-six years ago this Wednesday!