Lee494 | 04 May 2017 2:57 p.m. PST |
I'm always amazed how almost everyone credits Rommel with "inventing" the use of the famed 88mm Fkak against tanks in the France 40 Campaign. I wonder how the Germans using Flak or HE ammunition firing over open sights could have been so effective. Now if you are going to say that the Germans actually had sights for engaging ground targets, using direct fire, and crews trained to do it along with proper AP ammunition then I submit that if it was part of their training, doctrine and equipment that somebody in the German army must have thought of it long before Rommel did. Now I say that it was integral to German army tactics and equipment. Interested in how many out there disagree and think Rommel "invented" their AT use. |
rmaker | 04 May 2017 3:10 p.m. PST |
Given the armor on early war tanks, a heavy HE round with a delayed action fuse could be every bit as devastating as AP, if not more. |
zoneofcontrol | 04 May 2017 3:29 p.m. PST |
The wiki page remarks that the use of the 88 as an AT gun goes back to the Condor Legion during the Spanish Civil War. If it is listed there, it must be true. |
Dynaman8789 | 04 May 2017 3:54 p.m. PST |
Being able to do something and making it a part of operational plans is not the same thing. Rommel gets the credit for purposely using 88s as AT weapons rather than their having the capability in case it was needed for defense of the guns in case of a breakthrough. Edison also didn't invent the light bulb, etc… |
robert piepenbrink | 04 May 2017 4:33 p.m. PST |
I'm with Dynaman. One thing to make a full set of ammunition for every caliber of gun and drill troops for emergency firing over open sights, and quite another to gear tactics around the weapon and its capabilities. I would hedge, though, and say the 1940 use was "normal" if you will--a response to a crisis--and 1941 in North Africa was the innovation. Incidentally, I'd read the story of Condor Legion 88's fired against tanks before there was a Net, let alone wikipedia--but always in a generalized form. Can anyone name a date and place at which Condor Legion AA guns fired on Republican tanks in Spain? |
Frederick | 04 May 2017 5:49 p.m. PST |
The Germans – whoever did it – at least had the good sense to be innovative with their heavy AA guns The British 3.7 inch anti-aircraft gun was as capable as the German 88 (although a lot heavier) but the Brits very rarely used them for anti-tank; as I recall tactical doctrine was that they would only be used for anti-tank if a tank attacked the gun position |
Patrick R | 05 May 2017 2:29 a.m. PST |
The Germans put some 88mm on halftracks "Bufla or Bunker Flak" in case they needed to bust Czech bunkers should Hitlers Munich gamble backfire. They were subsequently used in Poland and France. The reality is that these were still fairly rare as late 1940 and were mostly in full control of the Luftwaffe, indeed there was some criticism from the Luftwaffe that Rommel had "appropriated" these 88mm guns and this would return in North Africa where Rommel seems to have been blind to the needs to protect supply/staging areas from allied airpower in favor of using them as front-line AT guns. The reality is that the few 88mm guns in North Africa were sporadically used when they had to deal with specific targets like Matildas and in most cases the real killing was done with captured Russian 76mm guns and the better German 50mm and 75mm guns as they became available. 88mm were far more often used as makeshift artillery than AT guns. Driving his subordinates to despair as they knew that they needed a little bit more than some kick-ass frontline assets to keep the Korps working properly. The idea that 88mm provided 99% of all AT work in North Africa is based on the limited knowledge of soldiers at the time, any gun was an 88mm, any MG was a Spandau, a tank was a Tiger etc … This carried over in post-war memoirs and was taken at face value by historians as access to German records was nigh impossible. Indeed the Afrika Korps never had more than a few dozen of the guns at any given time. Another factor is that they looked very big and impressive and were photographed as much as possible by the propaganda department to bolster the illusion on the home front that the German army was using massive numbers of incredibly powerful weapons to defeat the allies. As for the 3.7 inch, the design was not quite suitable for use as a direct fire as the carriage could be severely damaged when doing so. Another major disadvantage is that the 3.7 is much heavier than the 88mm and takes up a lot more time to set up properly or risk damaging the gun. Nevertheless the British did provide them with some AP in case they were needed. One of the reasons they were rarely used as AT was that they were considered corps assets and often kept behind the lines to protect important assets like HQ and supply areas. They were however extremely useful as artillery and provided excellent support in Italy using their radars to locate enemy batteries and hitting back with deadly accurate fire. They were used more intensively as artillery than they were as AA or AT weapons. The ones in Western Europe were quickly recalled after D-Day to protect London and Antwerp from V-1 bombs as it became clear that the Luftwaffe was hardly a threat. Antwerp X had hundreds of British 3.7 and US 90mm guns, which would have been a very nasty surprise should the Panzers ever have gotten through the Ardennes, bowled over XXX Corps and made it as far as the wide open suburbs of Antwerp only to be picked off by a multitude high-powered guns … |
Lee494 | 05 May 2017 4:17 a.m. PST |
Appreciate the thoughtful answers. Patrick yours was especially good and very much in line with my own research. BTW one source, can't recall but perhaps Bradley's Bio, off handedly mentions that the US pressed 8 Battlions of 90mm AA into frontline AT roles in Normandy after the new US 76mm tank guns proved so ineffective. Anyone else ever hear of that? Patrick I would love to email direct with you. And anyone else interested. Reach me through the Contact Page at skirmishaction.com Cheers! Lee |
zoneofcontrol | 05 May 2017 6:20 p.m. PST |
Dynaman & robert - Thanks for agreeing with and confirming my post. Agree that like Dynaman's comment on Edison, Rommel took someone else's "invention" and expanded its usage and efficiency. |
George Spiggott | 25 May 2017 6:55 a.m. PST |
I've never seen any source on 88 use in Spain that was more specific than 'engaged ground targets'. I'm not even sure that AT rounds were available to the 88s in Spain. |
Eumerin | 25 May 2017 11:08 p.m. PST |
I don't know about 90s at Normandy. But reading that I did on Kasserine Pass indicated that the US used a screen of anti-aircraft guns – including 90mm guns – to cover the retreat. The Germans didn't attack the screen, though, and the guns were pulled back without firing at any ground targets. |
capnvic | 30 May 2017 10:38 p.m. PST |
The 90's were used in the anti tank role in the Ardennes during the Battle of The Bulge. They were somewhat effective in the AT role against German heavy armor. |
PHGamer | 06 Jun 2017 8:28 a.m. PST |
I once read a poll done by the US Army, (the Army did this a lot) on what the troops thought were shooting at them, and to rate how dangerous it was to them. Most artillery fired at the troops was identified (incorrectly) as 88's. 88's had that kind of reputation. After that, like Patrick said, post war interviews had the 88 referred to far out of proportion to the actual numbers. Also, Rommel may have historically used the 88's as AT weapons first, but the Wehrmarcht certainly equipped them and trained them to be used as AT long before his using them. |
LORDGHEE | 06 Jun 2017 2:50 p.m. PST |
I like many felt that all artillery are 88's school of thought. Then came this tidbit. German divisional artillery had the longest time of response of any in WWII. up to 30 min for fire to be outgoing. Come to find out that Luftwaffe 88's if not doing their job could fire ground missions. 88 missions used a grid system and responded in 3 minutes. so a GI stating he hated the 88, it had meaning. one 90mm battery on a road was caught by the German advance. 3 out of the 4 guns where destroyed moving or setting up. one got set up and killed the first panther at a turn and stop the advance. It was the only time the 90 used that feature. 88 quit doing that when in the desert covering the retreat after El Alamain new Shermans with 75mm High Explosive smashed a battery at over a mile. 90mm story from Time of Trumpets. solders after Normandy reported the most dangerous weapon was the 81mm mortar of the Germans. |