Rich Bliss | 04 May 2017 9:48 a.m. PST |
After exposure to Frostgrave, I have, for the first time, started shopping for fantasy miniatures. And, quite honestly, I'm go smacked by the prices for most fantasy figures. I can find roughly the same size and quality in historical for half or less than the prices charged by fantasy manufacturers. And I'm not just talking about GW, either. As an example, there is a well know historical producer selling 5 very nice wolves for £7.50 GBP. Whereas a British fantasy manufacturer list 4 similar wolves for £14.00 GBP. Can anyone explain why this situation is seemingly universal? |
Lowtardog | 04 May 2017 9:52 a.m. PST |
Sales possibly a rank and file march attack Napoleonic will sell lots more than a character figure which less people may buy and will likely only buy one in some circumstances, demand and the audience game or rules specific creates demand |
Winston Smith | 04 May 2017 9:56 a.m. PST |
Exactly. A manufacturer can sell thousands of French Napoleonic line infantry but less than a hundred wizards. Cost of raw materials, molds, etc do not change but everything else depends on quantity produced. |
robert piepenbrink | 04 May 2017 10:09 a.m. PST |
Lowtardog is basically right, I think. But I suspect the franchise game systems in fantasy and SF have had an impact. Insist that only YOUR figures can be used in YOUR tournaments and conventions, and have copyrighted unit types, and if your system sells, you've got an effective monopoly. Young players who've grown up with this don't have the old historical gamer's reflexive response of looking for a cheaper unit or tank. High prices and low sales volume become a chicken-egg thing. There's also a certain amount of Parkinson's observation that "expenditures rise to meet income." There are days I think the "normal" price for a tabletop army is $250 USD-300: buy fewer figures--pay more per figure. I know it's not supposed to work that way. |
Rich Bliss | 04 May 2017 10:36 a.m. PST |
The volume argument was my first thought as well, but it doesn't hold water when you consider historical leaders which most people would only need one but yet cost $3 USD or less compared to a similar fantasy figure at $7 USD-10. |
John Armatys | 04 May 2017 10:37 a.m. PST |
The simple answer is because the market will bear it. And as Robert Piepenbrink says there is an element of monopoly (no one can stop a manufacturer producing a new range of historical figures, so there is more potential for competition) and youngsters are used to it (and have been for a very long time, so the youngsters of the 1980s are in their 40s or 50s). |
acatcalledelvis | 04 May 2017 10:42 a.m. PST |
I am also inclined to think that more effort is put into fantasy figures. I do both and the quality of fantasy figures is generally (not always)better – thus more expensive. However it is also about a captive audience. I have animals – if I buy something from an animal shop it will cost more than if I buy something from a general shop, even if it is exactly the same thing. |
Cerdic | 04 May 2017 10:53 a.m. PST |
It's what Robert said. You want to play a certain fantasy game? You got to buy that company's figures. So they have a captive audience and charge more…. |
Jamesonsafari | 04 May 2017 11:03 a.m. PST |
Also less competition. for Napoleonic figures I can go to multiple manufacturers and compare price quality availablity. But for Fantasy and SF figures, if they've got the look I want for my imagined world, then I can really only buy from them. |
Dynaman8789 | 04 May 2017 12:02 p.m. PST |
It is simple, Fantasy players are more locked in to the particular figures made by a manufacturer – playing Fostrgrave? You need to use Frostgrave figures. Playing Flames of War – you can use any 15mm figs unless you are in certain tournaments. |
Rich Bliss | 04 May 2017 12:08 p.m. PST |
Dynaman- That has certainly been the model in many cases, but not all. Frostgrave is explicitly not that way. Similarly, Dragon Rampant, which is my current interest, has no associated figure line. |
awalesII | 04 May 2017 1:12 p.m. PST |
Capitalism is very good at setting prices for consumer goods. It's what people are willing to pay from people willing to charge an amount. |
Lucius | 04 May 2017 1:16 p.m. PST |
Acatcalledelvis does make a good point. Fantasy miniatures really are usually better. More detailed. More personality. Better casting. I've got Perry Samuria, and Perry LOTR. The LOTR stuff has more detail. And I say that as a historical gamer. |
grahambeyrout | 04 May 2017 1:17 p.m. PST |
If I remember rightly, 46 years ago when the then fledging figure industry was beginning to cater for Tolkien inspired fantasy, one small scale manufacturer's catalogue contained both historical and fantasy lists. In one was a Late Roman Cavalryman, in another costing 20% more was a Rider of Rohan. Needless to say it was the same casting. |
Sgt Slag | 04 May 2017 2:00 p.m. PST |
I routinely shop historical figures for my fantasy armies, to save money, but also to tap into yester-year: E. Gary Gygax used various historical figures to represent different fantasy races. Sometimes you use a different scale of figure for your non-Humans, sometimes you just paint them differently, or use some other, simple, quick, means to alter them. In Gary's 1977 Monster Manual, he stat'ed out Hill Giants to be 54mm figures in size, when Humans were set at 25mm figures; Frost Giants work out to be 60mm tall, with 25mm Humans. I found 54mm Cave Men figures which make great Hill Giants, and 60mm Viking Figures make perfect Frost Giants (again, going by the sizes Gygax listed in his 1977 AD&D Monster Manual). Add in painting to match their described skin colors, and the figures become Giants… Especially when standing next to a 25mm tall Human! Per his 1978 AD&D Player's Handbook, Elves are typically 4-5 feet tall, so any smaller scale Human figures will work, as long as they are the correct size: 20-23mm tall figures, for 25mm tall Humans. Another example: Hobgoblins. Gygax stated that they are often mistaken for Humans, from a distance, as they march like Human armies, and they are highly militaristic, and disciplined. It is only when they get closer that they are seen to be Humanoids… I took some Human figures, and painted their faces orange, with blue noses. I also put them in Bronze Plate Mail armor (less expensive, but almost as good of protection as steel, and it seemed more appropriate for Hobgoblins…). The figures I selected, at arm's length, are still easy to note as being non-Humans due to their orange faces, and their telltale blue noses. Everyone familiar with Gygax's Hobgoblins, recognizes them immediately. It works out well enough for some creatures, but not all. Still, it is a fun adventure trying to guess what figures might have inspired him. It is also quite fun to see figures in proper scale, next to one another, to get a better idea of what Gygax had envisioned for AD&D, circa 1977-1979. Cheers! |
Martian Root Canal | 04 May 2017 2:30 p.m. PST |
Play Frostgrave in 15mm. Problem solved LOL. If were doing it all over again, I would simply buy 15mm from Battle Valor and Splintered Light. |
Dynaman8789 | 04 May 2017 3:50 p.m. PST |
If Frostgrave has no miniatues line I would also suggest 15mm, plenty of figs there for the same prices as historicals. |
The H Man | 04 May 2017 5:02 p.m. PST |
No matter what the game is, you can use any figures you want. At least at home and many clubs. One reason I see Britonnia and empire being killed off in aging sick ma is because they are too close to historical figures. Also most were sculpted by the Perrys, so you could just buy their new cheaper plastics and metals. Historical figures have an automatic audience, generic fantasy may also (it seems to get lots of interest on tmp when a new box comes out), so there is much competition and sales volume should be high anyway, so a cheaper price works. There is lots of choice of manufacturer and styles for historical and generic fantasy. Some good, some poor, some cheap, some expensive. Also remember, lots of people buy 28mm fantasy just to paint and display and in dioramas. With historical, this is mostly done with 54mm figures. Hence fantasy manufacturers are selling more 28mm to people who will spend a lot on a display figure. Basically historical has a bigger automatic market. Fantasy is much more niche and harder to market. Niche things cost more. |
Henry Martini | 04 May 2017 5:37 p.m. PST |
The fantasy and SF/youth market (and there's a large overlap between them) has always been prepared to pay much more for its figures, and so… it does! The naive youth market is more easily influenced by marketing, flashy presentation etc., and its costs are much more likely to be borne by parents ignorant of hobby pricing structures. The larger, slicker operators, such as Warlord, are clued into this phenomenon and play it to their advantage; hence even Warlord's historical products are generally significantly more expensive than equivalent products from its competitors. I picked up a box of Frostgrave plastics at the local B & M the other day; twenty figures for about the same price you'd pay for forty or so historical plastics. North Star, like every other company in the business, knows exactly what price its target market will bear. |
The H Man | 04 May 2017 6:16 p.m. PST |
And there's another thing. The larger companies GW, most likely warlord and so on have investors and share holders who are looking for big money back quick. Smaller operators don't demand quick money. Plastics in particular cost a lot to set up and therefore may take years to pay off set up costs, so the cost of the minis is dependent upon if the company wants its returns in long or short term style. If they pay a fee you make someone else's ip (warlord and Who, or GW and Hobbit) they will almost always go for big short term returns, before their rights to use the ip expires. Historical stuff is not limited to the hype of a film, tv show or game setting, so can be long turn things, thus cheaper price per unit. Also Historical does not need someone's ip, thus again being cheaper in compared to figures that do. And marketing is not as costly as with a figure no one has ever heard of. |
SultanSevy | 04 May 2017 7:28 p.m. PST |
There's also another thing, which impacts some ranges and that's PACKAGING. Some of the bigger fantasy/sci-fi companies sell their minis in fancy packaging with elaborate artwork on it -- think Games Workshop, Privateer, etc. That cost gets passed on to you. Whereas buying some bags or blister packs of historical minis has a much lower packaging cost. |
The H Man | 04 May 2017 8:30 p.m. PST |
I don't think the packaging affects the cost too much. Perhaps if the amount is multiplied as it goes through different suppliers. The material itself in the quantities of GW and the like would be very cheap. Even the cost of design would disappear across the units made. Most generic sized packaging in large numbers would be less than $1. USD |
Lovejoy | 05 May 2017 1:34 a.m. PST |
As many have pointed out, fantasy and scifi minis are often (not always!) simply better quality than historicals. This is often combined with larger physical size; a modern 35-to-40mm sci-fant mini can often have double the mass of a 28mm historical, and thus cost twice as much to produce. Speaking as a professional sculptor, when I was freelance, a sci-fant sculpt would usually take around twice as long as a historical one; and the client would often stress the need for quality, whereas most historical clients were happy to accept a rougher finish for a lower price. Also, a lot of historical ranges are very old now; the sunk costs have been covered, and they are just earning profit, so the prices don't need to be higher. In addition, many historical manufacturers are run 'for fun', as side businesses, funded by a main income. I know personally of some that are run at a loss, and the losses used to off-set tax. So those cheap historicals may often not reflect the real costs involved. |
The H Man | 05 May 2017 2:05 a.m. PST |
Yeah, that sounds right. Although a larger volume figure may not adjust the price a lot, depending on sculpt quality, material used in casting and molding. I see lots of generic boxes or packets with big or small figs for the same price. Some times larger figs are even cheaper! |
Lovejoy | 05 May 2017 2:45 a.m. PST |
Speaking personally, we sell a 20mm tall anthro mouse mini, and a 45mm tall anthro badger; the badger uses exactly 8 times as much metal as the mouse. It also only fits half as many casts in a mould, and the size of the mini overheats the moulds; they need replacing about three times as often. So for us at least, the profit margins on big figures are much tighter! |
Miniatureships | 05 May 2017 11:12 a.m. PST |
Better Quality? Questionable. Basically many fantasy, Syfy, and other miniatures are done by the same sculptor working out of their home verses working in a factory setting. Often the difference in what someone might call quality is really the creativity allowed with fantasy figures verses many of the preconceived ideas that are associated with the sculpting of types of miniatures. Second, packaging and the cost of what it takes to a get a miniature into the mass market and on the shelves of game and hobby shops, does have a lot to say about the cost. You may be able to get rule books printed on demand, but most printing companies still have set minimums in a lot of other areas like blister cards, boxes, etc. Plus what you put into the boxes for packaging is also not cheap. This is why companies that rely more on mail order than shop presence have gone to using poly bags. Lastly, what the consumer is willing to pay is also a very key point and is where the word "quality" becomes a primary issue. The more we believe in the quality of a certain line of figures, the more we are willing to pay for those figures. And face it, even in the historical market that type of marketing is becoming more and more predominate. One other thing to consider when involved in this type of discussion and GW is being put down due to the pricing structure, just remember that the people who created that price modeling for GW are now the major players in the historical market. |
Thomas Thomas | 05 May 2017 11:44 a.m. PST |
The quality argument is species. I have lots of Perry Brother historical figures in both plastic and metal and if anything they are better than equivalent fantasy figures. (Just compare their WOR & HYW war plastics to GW last set of Bretonians or current ballon inflated figures for instance.) When the Perry Brothers worked for GW, that company charged far higher prices for essentially the same style of figures by the same sculptors. In addition historical sculptors have to do tons of research down to the tiniest detail re cartridge boxes etc. Volume has nothing to do with it either. GW sells lots more figures than some obscure historical company making 7 Years War Austrians (for instance). The key is to avoid games that force you to buy figures from one manufacture – it's a racket. It's why GW went with Age of Silly – inflated figures on round bases with no historical equivalent. It takes the less expensive but higher quality Perry plastics out of the market. It's the whole reason I designed Fire and Ice so that you could use "off the self" figure lines (both historical and fantasy). Many modern fantasy settings (see Martin, Cameron, etc.) are set in Fantistorical worlds where historical figures (i.e. Perry Brothers stuff) work fine. The reason fantasy/monopoly companies charge over market prices is because we pay them. Support designers and companies who don't do this to you. You're a customer not a credit card. Thomas J. Thomas Fame and Glory Games |
daler240D | 05 May 2017 2:30 p.m. PST |
I don't even understand the mechanism for how you are forced to play a game with a particular figure. How is one wizard miniature, for instance, incompatible with a game system? |
Henry Martini | 05 May 2017 4:23 p.m. PST |
BTW, I didn't mean 'picked up' in the American sense. At that price I naturally put them straight back on the shelf :- ). |
The H Man | 06 May 2017 3:13 a.m. PST |
Building an army for a particular game, especially one with photos throughout of the companies particular figures, there is a desire in many to collect those figures and not use substitutes. I can understand this (Just not with the latest GW poor plastic offerings. Yeah thats right, I went there). It is a bit like building a 28mm samurai army. Would you want to use 28mm english long bowmen because you can get some on the cheap? Of course not. A bit of a stretch maybe, but if your seeing the figs in the books, particularly non generic characters and troops, most people would prefer the pictures figs. And there is nothing wrong with that. Price is really what it is about (most of the time), this is the real reason for using substitutes. And there is nothing wrong with that either. |
keithbarker | 06 May 2017 7:50 a.m. PST |
Black Tree Design have reasonable prices on Fantasy Figures. eoeorbisuk.com So not all fantasy figs are too expensive! |
Der Krieg Geist | 07 May 2017 12:41 p.m. PST |
I have to admit, that as long as I've been in this hobby( 43 years) fantasy and SF minitures have always been expensive.When historicals were 30cents per foot soldier, fantasy were $1.25 USD each from Ral Partha. I would chalk it up to the hobbies roots. When casters first started, they were mostly if not all, basement/Garage bussinesses who learned how to compete with super inexpensive airfix figures. First by offering what airfix and others did not, and later showing the advavtages of metal over soft plastic. The fantasy/ SF market sprung up around mostly the rpg market and a bit of mass combat wargaming such as LoTR battles where you either used historicals for the troops you could fake or/and used fantasy manufacerers that had little to no compition to speak of outside this niche within a niche market. I believe this set the foundation for the whole direction of the market even until the present. I have heard the"locked into one manufacterers" game system/miniture line arguement, for at least 25 years and I still believe it hold not one iota of validity. GW is supposed to be the worst offender, I've both played in their tourneys and run them in my shop even when they had outriders. I have not once seen someone disqualified or myself been diquailfied for using not maufacturers miniatures. Nor do I know of anyone personally and verifiably that this has happened to. Fantasy and S/F figures cost more because people will pay more. That is the only true factor I've ever seen to be valid. |
Der Krieg Geist | 07 May 2017 12:48 p.m. PST |
I have to admit, that as long as I've been in this hobby( 43 years) fantasy and SF minitures have always been expensive.Whe historicals were 30cents per foot soldier, fantasy wear $1.25 USD each from Ral Partha. I would chalk it up to the hobbies roots. When casters first started, they were mostly if not all, basement/Garage bussinesses who learned how to compete with super inexpensive airfix figures. First by offering what airfix and others did not, and later showing the advavtages of metal over soft plastic. The fantasy/ SF market sprung up around mostly the rpg market and a bit of mass combat wargaming such as LoTR battles where you either used historicals for the troops you could fake or/and used fantasy manufacerers that had little to no compition to speak of outside this niche within a niche market. I believe this set the foundation for the whole direction of the market even until the present. I have heard the"locked into one manufacterers game system/miniture line arguement, for at least 25 years and I still believe it hold not one iota of validity. GW is supposed to be the worst offender, I've both played in their tourneys and run them in my shop even when they had outriders. I have not once seen someone disqualified or myself been diquailfied for using not maufacturers miniatures. Nor do I know of anyone personally and verifiably that this has happened to. Fantasy and S/F figures cost more because people will pay more. That is the only true factor I've ever seen to be valid. |
The H Man | 07 May 2017 4:42 p.m. PST |
There are now so many manufacturers (and sellers) of so many different sizes and directions that it really has become a case by case thing. Are this companies historical or fantasy figs cheaper? We can say "overall, this is right" then find all the exceptions. I don't feel there is a definitive answer, just shop around, even the same figs can be priced differently in different shops. It also depends on what you want. Price, quality, material, exact scale, sculpt style, base style, number of parts… Even these can be again broken up. So the whole thing very much each buyers particular view and what they require. Thats why there are so many different companies, they all sell product as they all offer something slightly different. |
Borathan | 09 May 2017 5:14 p.m. PST |
One other thing, at least with the plastic kits, is that they need far more options for a fantasy or scifi based one than a historical. You also tend to need more intricate looks for the figures due to things like the elaborate armor and weapons that aren't things that would pop up in historicals. Also for most minis for Fantasy stuff that tends to be viewed are ones that aren't line troops. They tend to be ones where you need one of the sculpt, perhaps two for specific thing. Your town guards and similar tend to be ones where you ought to just use historicals or similar. While they're OOP at the moment, if you want Orcs, some of the more interesting ones are the Wargames Factory ones since they went their own way with them. |
Rudysnelson | 11 May 2017 4:09 p.m. PST |
The difference in prices was even a topic of discussion back in the 1970s and 1980s. Fantasy prices more than any shortages have pushed up the price of historical minis. Competition among companies have both increased and decreased basic prices. |
Nick Pasha | 13 May 2017 7:06 a.m. PST |
Fantasy manufacturers charge the prices they do because they can. Because people are willing to pay. Some companies run official tournaments that allow the player to use only their figures. They also keep changing their rule books, army lists, and figures. Players feel they need to keep up to compete. They want the latest versions. It has nothing to do with volume. Some historical miniature companies charge high prices as well for individual figures, maybe not as high, but they feel their figure line is worth it. |
Zephyr1 | 13 May 2017 2:38 p.m. PST |
I'd think that for fantasy, "personality" miniatures would indeed be priced higher than rank-n-file, simply because less would be needed by a player (low volume seller takes longer to recoup costs, but sooner if charging more for it); For instance, for an RPG, you'd only ever need one Oswick the Ogler dwarf miniature (but a whole regiment of them would be… creepy. Oh, and expensive. ;-) |
ced1106 | 14 May 2017 2:42 a.m. PST |
Also, in an RPG, you only need one miniature per player, so you still spent less money than historicals. It wasn't until Games Workshop had you buying tons of miniatures, many now made in plastic, that you spent hundreds of dollars on "rank and file" wargames. To some extent, the gaming hobby's rebelled with skirmish wargames that require fewer miniatures on each side, and the return of universal rules, such as Song of Blade and Heroes and Frostgrave, that let you use your own miniatures. Anyway, dungeoncrawlers and other boardgames are a relatively less expensive way to pick up miniatures, as are Reaper's plastic Bones line. Reaper will have a Bones KS "coming soon" you might follow to get a better idea of the variety of sculpts in the generic fantasy market. 15mm doesn't have the details that 28mm has. Which is fine, if you have better things to do than paint pupils for hours on end. :P |
tkdguy | 14 May 2017 7:58 p.m. PST |
Fortunately, I got a lot of my fantasy miniatures when they were still 25 mm, made out of lead, and cost from $0.75 USD to $1.25 USD each. Here are a few ideas on Youtube about getting cheap fantasy miniatures: YouTube link And if you can sculpt or craft, you can make your own stuff. Here's one example, albeit extreme. YouTube link Check out that guy's channel, btw. He does amazing stuff with terrain. |