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"BkC II vs. BkC III" Topic


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1,796 hits since 27 Apr 2017
©1994-2024 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

codiver27 Apr 2017 3:16 p.m. PST

After a fairly cursory look – admittedly more at some of the Army Lists than the rules:

1. There are provisions for the non-active side to React in both the Initiative and Command phases. Interesting idea, will have to actually play to see how it works.

2. There are no longer separate FACs. It appears FOs, previously called FAOs, now request both air and artillery. My first thought is that I am not that fond of it, as now there is no delineation between a nation's artillery support doctrine/ability and their air support doctrine/ability – beyond limits to units and overall support, and their Air Superiority rating.

3. Army Lists – the column orders are different; most notably in BkC II AT comes before AP, in BkC III, AP comes before AT. Annoying change.

4. Unit Notes/Special Abilities. In BkC II, these were in the flavor of Notes. For example, a Tiger I would have a Note # which would be "Tough: Flank hits do not reduce armor save." Now there is a Special Ability called "Good Armour", which translates to: "Units ignore the -1 save penalty for flank or rear hits." Just eye-balling it, there appear to be more Special Abilities than there used to be Notes, and seems more in the vein of FoW.

5. Oddly (to me anyway), in BkC III, the Panther has the "Good Armour" Special Ability. From what I have read, that is not warranted given the Panther's relatively thin flank/rear armor. But let's compare the Panther and the Tiger I in BkC II – BkC III (if only one value is listed, it is the same in both versions):
AFV; Move; AT; AP; CA; Hits; Save; Cost; Notes/Abilities
Panther; 25; 5/80 – 6/100; 3/80 – 3/100; 4 – 2; 6; 4+ – 5+; 215 – 190; BkC II: <none>, BkC III: Good Armour, Tank Buster*
Tiger I; 20; 5/100 – 5/100; 3/100 – 3/100; 4 – 2; 6; 4+; 230 – 165; BkC II Tough, BkC III: 1944+, Good Armour
* Tank Buster = Reduce a Hard target unit's save by -1 against hits from it's AT attacks.
Observations:
- The Panther does not have a date restriction. This is no doubt a typo, but as written the Germans can have Panthers in Barbarossa. Won't that be a shock to the Russian players!
- The Panther gets the same "Good Armour" special ability as the Tiger I, the only difference is its Save is one worse. So in BkC II, the two AFVs were equal on defense, except the Tiger I was less vulnerable from the flank/rear. In BkC III, the Tiger I is better all-around since it saves better. Seems to me BkC II is more in line with what I've read.
- The Panther's AT ability is much better in BkC III: its range is better (and the same as the Tiger I), it gets and additional attack die, and it is a "Tank Buster".
- Obviously the CA values are reduced for both. I haven't investigated to determine if that's a philosophical change in BkC III to make AFV CA less effective, or if it is offset by additional modifiers, as compared to BkC II.

6. One Note that didn't transfer is in BkC II, some AFV units, e.g. the Support Unit (IG, 150mm, Pz I) and Ferdinand, had the note "No Machine Guns: No bonus for firing at soft targets." In BkC III, there is no such equivalent Special Ability. All AFVs add +1d6 when firing at INF within 20cm. Further, in BkC II, AFVs added +1 D6 vs. [all] unarmored targets within 20cm.

7. Less units/detail: I mentioned the BkC II Support Unit (IG, 150mm, Pz I) – i.e. the SP 15cm infantry gun (Gw I), in this case mounted on the PzKw I chassis. I don't see any of those SP IGs in the BkC III lists. I also don't see the Sdkfz 250/1. On the other hand, BkC III still has the Zgkw, 88mm in the German Army, Early War, Sep' 39 – Jun '41 list, and they had what – 10 of them…

8. Less delineation in the Army lists: In BkC II, there were separate German Early East Front, Mid Eastern Front and Late Eastern Front lists. In BkC III, there is one German Army, Eastern Front, June '41 to May '45 list. One difference in BkC II was the Mid Eastern Front list had the aforementioned Ferdinand, while the Late Eastern Front list has the Elephant – which does not have the Note about lacking MGs.

codiver27 Apr 2017 3:19 p.m. PST

Hmmm, the formatting on the Panther vs Tiger I didn't work too well..

Weasel27 Apr 2017 3:23 p.m. PST

How many army lists do you get in total?

What's your call on 2 vs 3? I realized I don't own a copy any longer and am looking to remedy that.

codiver27 Apr 2017 3:31 p.m. PST

It says there are 49.

Attalus I27 Apr 2017 8:06 p.m. PST

On the German Eastern Front list, BKC III is showing the Panzer IV 7.5cm (short) as being available beginning in 1942, when it was available in 1941, per earlier lists.

In addition to the Gw1 missing from the German lists, the Panzerjager 1 was available in Russia in 1941, but missing from the list.

Also, it would have been nice if they included the 105mm K18 gun, which the Germans used quite alot in 1941, along with the 88, in the AT role vs KV's & T34's.

codiver28 Apr 2017 4:58 a.m. PST

Looking at the American NW Europe Jun '44 – May '45 list:

There are two entries for the M18 Hellcat and M18 Hellcat (HVAP). The second is Tank Buster. But there is only one entry for the M10 (that is also Tank Buster).

The M24 Chaffee does not have a date limitation (the M26 Pershing is 1945+).

The Sherman M4, 75mm has a date limitation of 1943+, which is pointless given the date range of the list.

The Sherman M4, 76mm 'Jumbo' is a Tank Buster, but the Sherman M4, 76mm is not. I'm not aware of the 'Jumbos' being issued HVAP earlier/more frequently than the regular Sherman 76s.

I guess I have to say my opinion is it was not a good idea to change from BkC II's format where the date limitations were month/year, to say nothing of the obvious errors.

codiver30 Apr 2017 4:58 a.m. PST

I was looking at throwing together my first Army List spreadsheet, and noticed a couple of more differences.

In BkC II, field defenses had point costs; in BkC III they do not. I suppose this will matter the most to people who use the book's system to generate scenarios/games.

In BkC II, a side's Breakpoint was based on (generally) losing 50% of the number of units a side started with. There were exceptions based on some unit types, and the side's Tactical Doctrine also effected it. In BkC III, it is based on losing 50% of the number of points a side started with. This may account for the deal in BkC II where losing a Tiger tank counted the same as losing an armored car; however, it hardly can be considered "streamlined", as it will be much more of a pain to keep track of the number points lost than the number of units.

ItinerantHobbyist01 May 2017 3:35 p.m. PST

See this post from Leon on the Pendraken forums.
link

Texas Jack02 May 2017 8:01 a.m. PST

Leon and everyone at Pendraken are really a class act!

@ codiver:
I really appreciate all the information you have listed here, it has been very helpful. thumbs up

Weredoomed200304 May 2017 1:36 a.m. PST

Just to note that due to the multiple errors and army list issues BKC3 has now been withdrawn from sale by Pendraken

Dr Davey04 May 2017 4:08 a.m. PST

It's still available on wargames vault as a pdf download!

williamb04 May 2017 7:15 a.m. PST

Actually it is no longer available from wargames vault either. It is still listed, but clicking on the listing takes you to a page that says it is not available.

Dr Davey04 May 2017 8:12 a.m. PST

Probably for the best…

williamb05 May 2017 10:02 a.m. PST

Leon has posted on the Pendraken forums that they will be doing a reprint within the next two to three months
link

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