"Multi-discipline US infantry in 1990/2000s" Topic

I am gathering up some forces for the Rangers in Mogadishu and Marines in Fallujah. I will be using Ambush Alley rules.

I have no great knowledge of low level tactics in the modern period and have a query over the Fireteam concept. From the AA scenario books, I see that a Fireteam is comprised of a leader with a M16, SAW operator, a grenadier and a rifleman with a M16

My question is "if the grenadier or SAW operator becomes inoperative, can the squad leader and/or the rifleman competently take over the use of the weapon or would it be lost to the Fireteam? If not, what would happen to the actual weapon: I presume it would not be left lying about?"

Well for the Marine Corps doctrine was the M16/203 was carried by the Fireteam leader who was corporal, the Saw gunner was the next senior man and the last two Marines carried the spare barrel and extra saw ammo. I play FOF as I did in the Marine Corps I reassign weapons so they stay in the fight, in game terms that means waiting till next turn for the changes to take effect.

I agree with IrishMarine. Every member of a Marine infantry squad is thoroughly versed on each other Marine's weapon. The only difference I would say is that in the seventies and in the eighties, the M-16/M-203 was carried by the grenadier in the fire team and not the team leader. Also, they didn't use the SAW back in the old days. Having said that if I recall correctly IrishMarine was an active duty Marine in the nineties so if that is the period you're covering you may want to listen to him.

An infantryman trained to the most basic level with have a basic proficeincy with the rifle, grnade launcher and M249.

He should be able to operate any weapon carried in his squad or section.

1986-2010. So I covered it all.

Many thanks.

Alan

As troopwo and others have posted. All Infantrymen are trained with all the weapons in their units' inventory(s). The weapons in my Mech Inf Co. '87-'89 were :
M16s
M203s
M249s
M60s
M47 Dragons
M9 pistols
M2 .50 cals

All 112 men in my Co. were cross trained in all those weapons. So everybody could use any weapon at any time. And that is generally the way it is in any Infantry force of any worth. E.g. all in NATO, IDF, etc., …

And many like myself, many were trained with the AK47.

M72 LAWs were issued as needed as an expendable munition as with grenades of all types.

I presume it would not be left lying about?"

No … any heavy weapon, i.e. anything above an M16 is picked up and put back into use. Generally you do Not leave any weapon behind if it is at all possible. As it could be reused against you by the enemy.

IrishMarine: I was '76 to '86

Alan,

I wasn't going to post as there's not much to add, but it's turning into a Marine reunion and I didn't want to miss out. I was in 94-04 as an 0331 and 0369. April is coming to a close, and you mention Fallujah; 13 years ago I spent the whole month of April in Fallujah with B/1/5. I actually cross-decked to K/3/1 for a couple months, but I rotated home at the end of September, missing kickoff for 2nd Fallujah by just over a month (I had a buddy, a fellow SSgt, that fought through both).

In any case, the only things I might put just a shade of a finer point on from above:

1. As Irish pointed out, the team leader has the -203, the next senior guy has the SAW, then there's an A-gunner with the barrel bag. In the 90s the other rifleman was deemed the Scout, though by OIF that guy was issued an ACOG and was termed the Designated Marksman. I have no idea how things went post-2004 as it looks like now everyone has optics.

2. While everyone in the Platoon could operate any of the Platoon's weapons, I don't recall seeing, or anyone ever making a big deal about getting a -203 back into action, it was always about the SAW. Doctrinally the riflemen are taught to keep the SAW in action at all costs. That is, if the Team Leader went down, no one was rushing to get the -203 back into action, but if the Automatic Rifleman went down the priority was to get the SAW back into action.

And we don't leave any weapons behind, regardless. We tried to always get Rifles out with the casualties in the MEDEVAC (for us, one of the Company's HMMWVs, and the Company Gunny would police up the weapons, ammo, and comm gear).

V/R,
Jack

Again,

Many thanks. It does seem a bit strange that the Ambush Alley guys made up their ORBATS in the way they did with the Fireteam leader just having a M16.

Alan

And we don't leave any weapons behind

Damn straight ! Someone is signed for that ! And someone may have to pay for it !

would police up the weapons, ammo, and comm gear

You can always use more ammo, etc. (and so can the enemy !)

Brings to mind something from the RANGER Handbook, written by LTC Rogers over 250 years ago, "Don't Forget Nuth'n !"

If you want a very comprehensive source on all things infantry and squad fireteam level, google "FM 7-8 Infantry Rifle Platoon and Squad" which gives the composition of a US Army infantry squad with excellent diagrams and explanations on fireteam maneuver.

Come on Steve, nobody gives a damn about no Army squads, this is a Marine show ;)

Sad to see your gaming is down due to your home projects. You need to take a good look at where your priorities are ;)

With regards to the OP, I wasn't Army but it does seem to me that the Army had the team leader carrying an M-16 (or M-4, nowadays) and a junior guy carrying the M-203.

V/R,
Jack

I am gathering up some forces for the Rangers

Hold your fire Marine ! He said Rangers too !

But yes, based on the Squad/Fire Tm size, a TM Ldr would probably carrying M16. But my rule was everybody carried a heavy weapon regardless of Tm size if at all possible. Due to attrition, leave, etc., etc., …

A 4-5 man Fire Tm could be carry:

1 M203
1 M249
1 M60
1 M16

The other could pack:

1 M203
1 M249
1 M47 MAW
1-2 M16s

So generally a TL would carry an M16.

In the early 80s, the US ARMY had 11 man squads authorized, whether Light or Mech. E.g. my Plt in the 101 had 11 men on the ground.

The Mech had to leave a Driver & TC with the M113 with[.50 cal.] So that left 9 Dismounts. Which equated to 2 Fire Tms. 1 with 5 the other with 4.

Later the Squad for the M2 Brad was reduced to 9 men.
With the Driver, Gunner and TC staying on the Track. And 2 with 3 man Fire Tms, was the best you could do. To few dismounts for me. And even with the M2 Brad's 25mm extra firepower. Sometimes you can't take the track with you. For a number of reasons.

I know they had the Carrier TM of 3 with the Track. And a Ground Tm of 6. Which is the way they ran those Mech generally. But again, the M2 can't go everywhere the dismounts can. And not really too "stealthy" for a dismounted patrol, day or night …

IIRC, the Army's theory is that the squad and fireteam leaders have higher priorities than the best employment of the M203, so they only pack a standard rifle.

If the Marines are usually using the 203 for smoke or illum, then it makes sense for the squad or team leaders to have them.

Legion – You guys could carry all that because you didn't have to hump it! ;)

Lion – The doctrine is for the Scout/DM to pull security, the A-gunner help keep the SAW in action, the Automatic Rifleman provide sustained fire, and the Fire team Leader to direct the fire of the SAW and engage dead ground with the the -203 as necessary.

Illum is not really talked about in the age of every man having NVGs. Smoke to screen is of the hand-held variety, no sense popping it 50+ yards from you (and the smoke rounds don't put out that much smoke). I remember being told to use it for marking targets, but it never made sense to me to pull an HE or HEDP out to pop a smoke, everyone can see the explosion just as well as they can see the smoke. Some battalions I was with in the 90s had NCOs load full mags of tracers to mark targets, but I didn't see anyone do that in the 2000s (in the 90s you only had a couple sets of NVGs per squad, by OEF/OIF everyone had them).

V/R,
Jack

To join the Marine reunion Was in Echo 2/6 1985-1988 SAWS were in use during this period as I did graduate from a SAW gunner to a fire team leader carrying an M203 in 1987.

Legion – You guys could carry all that because you didn't have to hump it! ;)

I started out as a Rifle Plt Ldr in the 101 Airborne Air Assault. Once the choppers dropped you off. You had to hump all that stuff. Fortunately, the Rifle Plts didn't have .50 cals ! The M60 MG and M47 MAW was has heavy as it got. Which was enough !

But the next 3 Inf Bns I served in were Mech with M113s. So we still had to hump … but generally just not that far … And the 50 cal. very rarely was taken off the track !

@Just Jack: Thanks for that. I've been arguing with the guys on the Infinity forums about the on-table commanders having MGs (my position is that they shouldn't), be good to get some backup in that.

Big thing to remember, there are three fire teams in a US Marine rifle squad. The are only 2 fire teams in an Army infantry squad.

The M203 in the defense was considered a very important weapon. When the Asst. MG Gunner(M60 in my day) walked the FPL, the 203 gunner in the team would compare his range card to MG gunners to cover dead space. Since the 203 could only hit area targets out to about 300m, it couldn't cover all the dead space, but was able to cover any to about 1/2 of the max. FPL range. The M60 could only produce grazing fire to 600m. The FLP (final protective line) was always the extreme right or left limit. If the gun was on tripod using the T&E device, all you hat to do was shift the gun to the FPL side of the tripod, and set the T&E for grazing fire. This was all written out on the range card in a chart. It was formatted so you could engage target areas during limited visibility by just setting the gun based on the range card table.

Ah, the good old days. By the way, there was T&E and tripod for the M2 .50 cal also. Depending on the situation, the 50cal would sometimes get taken off the vehicle and dug in.

The M203 was many times carried by the Squad leader once we went to the H series TO&E. The Squad leader theoretically became a team leader once dismounted. In my squad I kept the Dragon Gunner and M60 gunner with me, and my asst. SL would have a M203 gunner, and 2 riflemen. The weird thing is we converted to H series and still had M113s.

The Army never specialized Machine Gunner or AT. Dragon was always organic to the infantry squad. Dragon trained personnel received the C2 MOS extender (11B10C2). 11B was light weapons infantry, 10 was skill lever 1 or E1-E4, C2 was Dragon Qualified. Every member of the Army infantry squad, was supposed to know how to employ and maintain every weapon in the platoon. This was kind of tricky with the M2. If you insert the bolt of the M2 with the extractor to the rear, the bolt hangs up in the gun. This really infuriates the armorer, since he's the only one the has the tools to get it out.

I too remember the USMC having 13 man Squads with 3 Fire Tms of 4 + the SL, IIRC.

And yes, we'd generally only dismounted the .50 in the deliberate defense. And digging it in.

The weird thing is we converted to H series and still had M113s.

Us too, both in the ROK and with the Mech Bde at Benning. And that Bde(the 197th) was part of the 18th ABN Corps. The Heavy element of the 18th.

In the ROK, our M113s had the ACAV turrets w/out the gun shield. But in the US we were told we'd be issued those when we deployed for combat.

Generally I remember and/or agree with what you posted there lincolnlog. It appears we were Grunts at about the same time frame. But don't hold it against me for being an Officer !

Legion 4, I was J series TO&E in Germany, but we were always at 70% strength and sometimes less. So the effect was about the same. In the J series, the Mech platoon had 5 M60 MGs, so our SOP was two squads had 2 x M60, and 1 squad had a single M60.

I was also J series at Ft Ord (7th Div) and we hovered around 90% strength sometimes a little higher. My company eventually went to New Manning System and we were 100% strength (at least at first).

My Guard unit was J series at first (50% strength) and then switched to H series for Division 86.

We definitely stomped some of the same ground, around the same time.

We definitely stomped some of the same ground, around the same time.

Certainly sounds like that is true !

And when I was in the 101, our Rifle Co. was short one whole Rifle Plt. Being 2 Rifle and 1 81mm Mortar Plts. And we were part of the RDF/18th ABN Corps !

We did the H to J in the ROK in @ '85. When I was with a Mech Bn(there were only 2 Mech Bns in the 2ID). What a Pain in the ! But I did like the reorganization of 4 instead of 3 Mech Cos. And the loss of the CSC, becoming an Anti-Armor Co. Fortunately we had M901 ITVs. Even though the Mech Cos were still using M113s w/ACAV turret.