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"HMGS - TIME TO VOTE - You got your ballot!" Topic


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Action Log

22 Apr 2017 9:19 a.m. PST
by Editor in Chief Bill

  • Removed from 3D Printing board
  • Crossposted to Conventions and Wargame Shows board
  • Crossposted to Clubs board
  • Crossposted to Wargaming in the USA board


4,118 hits since 22 Apr 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Pages: 1 2 

Yankees Supporting Member of TMP22 Apr 2017 8:57 a.m. PST

You have gotten your ballot, this is an important event that must be addressed.

The Board Voted to Move Historicon to Lancaster PA 2018. There are people that believe that we should stay in Fredrickburg, and this is after we the board have shown there is a decline in attendance and income. This is our big show and we are just spinning our wheels going nowhere in Fredrickburg, conventions should be growing not imploding. Read the bio's VOTE!

Make a difference VOTE!

David Waxtel, John Spiess, Scott Landis, Michael Fatovic

rmcaras Supporting Member of TMP22 Apr 2017 9:26 a.m. PST

You may have received your ballot…but not for me….yet.

Ed Mohrmann Supporting Member of TMP22 Apr 2017 9:36 a.m. PST

Got my ballot, but I won't vote for any candidate who
feels it necessary to electioneer on TMP.

Which is too bad, but I'm sure my vote won't be missed
at all.

Personal logo Murphy Sponsoring Member of TMP22 Apr 2017 10:04 a.m. PST

I'm trying to figure out if the four names at the bottom of the original post are:

A: The four people the poster is voting for.
B: The four people the poster is voting against.
C: The message is endorsed and supported by the four names.
D: They are just tossed up there by the OP to help stir the pot.

Currently I am going with #4….

Hafen von Schlockenberg Supporting Member of TMP22 Apr 2017 10:26 a.m. PST

we the board

So the OP "is" the board?

fredavner Supporting Member of TMP22 Apr 2017 10:50 a.m. PST

Hey Dave I hear your being managed by Paul Manafort. 😎

kallman22 Apr 2017 11:12 a.m. PST

troll

Personal logo Chuckaroobob Supporting Member of TMP22 Apr 2017 11:58 a.m. PST

Does Trump play with minis?

zoneofcontrol Inactive Member22 Apr 2017 2:31 p.m. PST

"Does Trump play with minis?"

Yes, it's called congress.

Ember52 Supporting Member of TMP22 Apr 2017 3:08 p.m. PST

If he does, those minis are HUGE…..

Yankees Supporting Member of TMP22 Apr 2017 4:44 p.m. PST

And he cheats.

kallman23 Apr 2017 8:19 a.m. PST

Okay I did receive my ballot a couple of days ago so kudos to the organization for that. There are nine candidates. My initial reading is that all bring work and life experience that makes each one viable. I do not know any of these gentlemen personally so I do not have a specific dog in this fight other than that I want to see HMGS East continue to produce three good to excellent conventions. I game master, I play, I purchase, I reconnect with friends and sometimes I bring things to sell in Wally's Basement. That is what matters to me.

The cost of driving and attending these conventions is also a factor. Without knowing these candidate and only having their brief pitch or "Vote for Me" statement to go on I have to infer a great deal based simply on how each comes across in their writing. Here are some observations:

Four of the candidates are current incumbents; read into that what you will depending on how you feel about how HMGS is being managed. Personally I know it is tough job and you can never make everybody happy.

All spend time discussing their love of the hobby. Good for them.

All have work and life backgrounds doing complicated administrative duties or run their own business.

More than one works in banking and finance, several mention their military careers. You will have to judge for yourself whether that makes that person qualified to be on the BOD.

A number of them have volunteer and administrative backgrounds in other non-profit organizations such as the Boy Scouts of America to just mention one. This to me speaks more about the person's ability to work and manage being on the BOD than anything else.

More than one talks about the need to make changes and be responsive to all the parties involved in the conventions and the larger mission of outreach, i.e., promoting the hobby to a new generation and more people. Agreed but I would have liked to have read from any of them on specifics on how they would accomplish this.

A few engage in a bit finger pointing and to that I say when you are pointing a finger, three are pointing back at you.

Any of these candidate can do the job. However, unless you know these men personally you will have to roll the dice on who you think will do the best job. Keeping in mind there are always unforeseen factors and items that happen you have little to no control over. Such as potential of current convention sites suddenly going under or changing their focus.

I am not sure who I will cast my ballot for, or if it matters but will give it my due diligence.

Ottoathome23 Apr 2017 10:38 a.m. PST

Got it, voted, sent it on.

TheKing30 Supporting Member of TMP23 Apr 2017 3:06 p.m. PST

Got it and voted! Thank you for the guidance!

McKinstry Fezian23 Apr 2017 9:41 p.m. PST

Does Trump play with minis?

Only Russians.

Ceterman Supporting Member of TMP24 Apr 2017 10:13 a.m. PST

I don't like all 3 being in one place. I don't like all 3 being in the SAME place. I don't like all 3 being up North. I don't like like being told how to vote. I don't like trump. I do like kallman's post. I do like the fact that Mr. Waxtel (I believe that's who it was) said, he thinks at least one Con should be in the South. And this, from an incumbent. Again, I do like kallman's post.

historygamer24 Apr 2017 10:24 a.m. PST

Ed:

What's wrong with a candidate posting on TMP, where people can ask questions? Hardly any members belong to the old yahoo group, and there is often such group think there that someone asking a question can get shouted down (which admittedly can happen here too).

I don't know any of the above mentioned candidates, though John did come over to thank me for supporting CW by running a game. I can count the number of times a BoD member did that on one hand.

Regardless who is on the ballot, the challenges are all the same. The problem for voting for a board is that it is:

a. Hard to determine what role they will fill
b. Hard to determine what incumbents did while there
c. Hard to tell what the way forward will be as they need to achieve consensus with three others

Ed Mohrmann Supporting Member of TMP24 Apr 2017 1:37 p.m. PST

Jim, it isn't the place for it. The only folks who
can vote are members, who have access to the fora
on HMGS Inc.'s own website.

Same place you can also read the bio's, etc. and
also ask questions of the candidates.

So why do it here ?

One could surmise that non-members might want to
ask questions of candidates, but to what purpose ?

Given the apparently declining membership numbers in HMGS,
Inc. I'd hope a BoD, whether mostly incumbents or
with new blood, would involve itself more in trying to
increase the membership numbers rather than wrangle
about putting one of the cons in close proximity
to NYC….

historygamer24 Apr 2017 7:36 p.m. PST

I suspect more members are on TMP than the yahoo group, and likely more members read TMP than the yahoo group as well. The yahoo group never held more than a fraction of the membership anyway.

But I get your point. :-)

You could look at it as they are enthusiastic and trying to reach out to the members who aren't on the Yahoo group. Social media has many lanes today and for gaming TMP is a big one. :-)

War Scorpio24 Apr 2017 7:53 p.m. PST

I agree with historygamer and disagree, respectfully, with Ed. Received my ballot, read the bios, but will vote when I have the most information in order to make the appropriate BoD choices best insuring the success of HMGS.

Why hash it out here? Because this is a forum where ideas are put forth and debated. TMP has a lot of topics, and gamers not interested in HMGS will not even post. If they do, so what? We are here to vet. Non members and day trippers should have a say.

"would involve itself more in trying to
increase the membership numbers rather than wrangle
about putting one of the cons in close proximity
to NYC…." What is wrong with a con in close proximity to NYC? In fact, it was already done as Historicon 2018 was to be in Raritan NJ until the site was converted to a data center. I believe the existing BoD was trying to increase membership by strategically placing convention sites. It pays to be a member if you attend two HMGS conventions per year. Nobody (for the most part) wants all three conventions in the same place. Why not have one convention (probably Historicon) in Lancaster where it used to be, and have one more north and one more south.

There are other issues to discussed, so let's do it. I have no problem telling who I will vote for, and give reasons to back my choices.

historygamer25 Apr 2017 4:13 a.m. PST

Other than electing the board, membership in HMGS is relatively meaningless. Pat Condray used to say (paraphrasing) that what was important was attendance, not membership.

But let's look at the original post:

"The Board Voted to Move Historicon to Lancaster PA 2018."

They really didn't have much of a choice.

"There are people that believe that we should stay in Fredrickburg, and this is after we the board have shown there is a decline in attendance and income."

To be fair, the decline in attendance was documented by the data, but yes, at some level, the current board finally accepted those facts. On top of that, more than one dealer at CW mentioned that this year was going to be their last at Fredericksburg regardless of what the board decided. Note these were casual buyer/seller conversations with people (dealers) that I don't know personally, so that kind of tells you their mood. Not that all dealers felt that way, but at least some did enough to voice them to a stranger.

"This is our big show and we are just spinning our wheels going nowhere in Fredrickburg, conventions should be growing not imploding. Read the bio's VOTE!"

Spinning wheels is a rather generous way to describe the continued decline of what happened during the course of the con at the FCC. That said, I am not a fan of all three at any one facility, but I don't think that is the board's intent.

I would also note that while the OP placed four names at the end of the message, he did encourage people to read (all) the bios and vote, so as electioneering goes, this post seems pretty mild to me.

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP25 Apr 2017 4:58 a.m. PST

I agree with everything Historygamer has said, with the exception of:

Other than electing the board, membership in HMGS is relatively meaningless

Membership also provides some of the funds to continue financing the three conventions. This is the main reason for me.

Poniatowski Supporting Member of TMP25 Apr 2017 7:49 a.m. PST

Please vote guys… and gals….
It really is meaningful.
If you have QUESTIONS, PUT THEM OUT THERE. I am sure that the candidates will respond.

HMGS means a lot to so many of us and we want folks in charge who are agenda free and have what's best for the organization at heart, not personal gain or agenda. I am NOT saying any of the candidates in the running are or do… it is just good to be informed, etc…

Do your research and vote with confidence! Please!

CoffeeCooler Inactive Member25 Apr 2017 8:31 a.m. PST

voted last night and placed in the mail this morning…now I wait and watch.

historygamer25 Apr 2017 9:27 a.m. PST

Bowman:

As you know, money is fungible. Point being – it is hard to say if dues go to cover convention costs or chapter (board) costs. But either way the money goes to cover costs. :-)

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP25 Apr 2017 10:33 a.m. PST

Yep, and I get a 50% discount ($25) just at Historicon. Which pays for my membership all year.

So it's good to be a member and it's important to vote.

TheKing30 Supporting Member of TMP25 Apr 2017 10:44 a.m. PST

Jim, it isn't the place for it. The only folks who
can vote are members, who have access to the fora
on HMGS Inc.'s own website.

Same place you can also read the bio's, etc. and
also ask questions of the candidates.

So why do it here ?

As a member, I've never been able to access the Yahoo site. I've tried numerous times but was never successful. So I appreciate when an announcement is made here on TMP.

Ed Mohrmann Supporting Member of TMP25 Apr 2017 3:56 p.m. PST

Yahoo site ? Perhaps you can't access because you're
in the wrong place ?

Try this one: hmgs.site-ym.com

Use the normal prefix (http://)

I had some difficulty when the site was first established
but with some help (Paul Trani, in particular) I was
able to logon and can now navigate the site fairly easily.

kayjay25 Apr 2017 6:16 p.m. PST

No one saw fit to mention that a stamped SAE was included this time ?

Ottoathome26 Apr 2017 8:46 a.m. PST

Dear Ed

I got on there and posted something so it seems to work, saw my post echoed, but I don't know if I'm in the right area. There seems to be no real discussion since 2013 by Walt O'Hara and a few photos from last august.

If I am in the right area I don't think this is a good indicator and it's little wonder people congregate to talk here.

Otto

Ottoathome26 Apr 2017 9:04 a.m. PST

As for the post.

I am told-- I AM TOLD-- by people who are well connected enough to know, though I neither confirm, credit or deny it that the large number of candidates is because there is a "cabal", their words not mine, to have a southern favorable board take over and move two, if not all the conventions down south, one to Fredericksburg and one to the Carolinas.

I do not know if this is true or not. But it IS making the rounds.

I gather that as the four signatures under the original post are all the incumbents in the election they are endorsing their ticket as a "stay the course" policy, but that may be only an apparent conclusion.

As I emphasize, this is what I have been told from several different sources.

The truth of the assertion is unimportant. By now it has become patently obvious to most uninformed and casual observer that hard realities of the peculiar nature of our hobby and our gamers will determine what is done in the future if we are to pay attention to success at all. It is that it simply will not do to paraphrase the movie title and say "If you hold it here, they will come." Where the convention PROSPERS will depend on geographical location within a radius of acceptable travel, cheapest cost, acceptable facilities to suit our rather peculiar and unique needs, willingness to work for it, and not the least familiarity and habit and the reputation and esteem with which the Society is held. These are unchangeable, immutable, and in many cases unquantifiable and highly emotional.

The late great Pat Condray was everyone's favorite whipping boy but he has proven time and again to be brilliant in his observations, the chief of which were 1) that it is a society and not an organization, and that 2) attendance if more important than membership.

As I reiterate, I can neither confirm nor deny that there is such a supposed "cabal" or to what aims and ends if it exists it has been formed. However I am certain that if it is so it will shortly come up against the realities of the convention criteria and limitations alluded to above. It may, if elected and the dark rumors are true, then determine that it will move the convention wherever it wishes but the conditions surrounding the location of the convention will take no notice of their fondest wishes or arrogance that they can dictate what members of the society will do.

As Pat observed it is the nature of a "society" as opposed to an organization, that people in a society can take as much, or as little of the society as they wish, and you can neither force, nor fire them, and if you do, the work remains undone and retire them with full pay and benefits. In an organization you can command obedience and have the power of coercion. Election to the BOD does not make you everyone's commanding officer.

TSD10126 Apr 2017 11:30 a.m. PST

Which ones support finally moving the convention registration and voting into the 21st century?

It is beyond ridiculous at this day and age that HMGS is still wasting oodles of money per vote (somewhere in the neighborhood of $20 USD per vote! as mentioned at the Cold Wars meeting).

To hear whoever it was arguing against even exploring the possibility of LOOKING INTO secure online voting was rather enraging and are NOT people I want to have any control over HMGS.

Ed Mohrmann Supporting Member of TMP26 Apr 2017 11:54 a.m. PST

Otto, I know an awful lot of folks down South who are
gamers and DO NOT KNOW of such a cabal. Were I of
suspicious mind, I might surmise that the rumors are
sourced in a different cabal, one with roots in Sodom
on the Hudson.

But I'm not that paranoid – yet.

The Colonel KC Inactive Member26 Apr 2017 12:32 p.m. PST

TSD101, you are right, on the high costs. Sound like you may have paid a sorting service to get them out. The Midwest just did its election, and with 408 members averaged a .9 cent cost per voter. We sent out the ballots electronically, and PDF format on the website, with snail mail to less than 5%. The respondents mailed in their ballots on their own stamp.

I would be curious as to what percentage you get on this.

Disco Joe26 Apr 2017 12:52 p.m. PST

Otto, if what you are saying might be a fact then why isn't Historicon doing as well attendance wise to be able to justify a permanent location there? If I remember correctly people have said that by moving it down south you will get all these southern gamers who will come and offset if not replace the northern gamers who don't attend. Has that truly happened or not?

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP26 Apr 2017 1:46 p.m. PST

TSD101 and Colonel KC, that's crazy talk!

wink

Ottoathome26 Apr 2017 3:12 p.m. PST

Dear Ed
As I said in copious disclaimer, I was told this by two sources, I can neither confirm nor deny. One of them is located in Virginia and one of them is from your own North Carolina. But this talk goes around a lot.

Disco Joe

As I said I neither confirm nor deny, nor am I an advocate for one place or the other. The demographics and attendance were those immutable and unchangeable factors that the society deals with. I WILL note however that the animus of the sections as evidenced here many times is fierce, ascerbic, and vitriolic and that in an atmosphere like that such rumors or factions may be true.

As I said, it has happened before when persons felt that they could mandate and command the allegiance of the society and do what they wished, and they were under the "If you move it they will attend because THEY HAVE TO.

I refer of course to the Baltimore fiasco.

As I said in my note, IF such is the case and IF there is such a cabal, and IF it does attain control, the obvious and immutable and unappealable factors and conditions inherent in our hobby and convention will mitigate against it. If the persons choose not to recognize these and make decisions contrary to these, the results will be obvious.

TheKing30 Supporting Member of TMP26 Apr 2017 3:14 p.m. PST

As for the post.

I am told-- I AM TOLD-- by people who are well connected enough to know, though I neither confirm, credit or deny it that the large number of candidates is because there is a "cabal", their words not mine, to have a southern favorable board take over and move two, if not all the conventions down south, one to Fredericksburg and one to the Carolinas.

I do not know if this is true or not. But it IS making the rounds.

I gather that as the four signatures under the original post are all the incumbents in the election they are endorsing their ticket as a "stay the course" policy, but that may be only an apparent conclusion.

Ok – let's say you're correct. The "move idea" was already tried – Historicon was moved to FB. How did that pan out? Move more of the conventions further south and let's see what happens. We'll be sitting, eating our popcorn while HMGS tries to figure out how to pay for a convention with shrinking attendance.

vagamer63 Supporting Member of TMP26 Apr 2017 4:45 p.m. PST

Not heard any word of such a cabal in our little corner of Virginia, but then membership has waned pretty much in this neck of the woods for reasons that aren't worth discussing further as what's been done won't be undone!

Personal logo Murphy Sponsoring Member of TMP26 Apr 2017 5:51 p.m. PST

Ok let's say you're correct. The "move idea" was already tried Historicon was moved to FB. How did that pan out?

Well it worked, though not in the way and in numbers that people wanted, but it did work, considering at the time there were NO; as in "ZERO", Nein, Nyet, Nada, and Nix, (And I dont' mean Stevie), suitable alternatives "up north"….

Ottoathome26 Apr 2017 7:56 p.m. PST

Dear The King 30

I only relate what I was told.

TheKing30 Supporting Member of TMP26 Apr 2017 8:08 p.m. PST

Well it worked, though not in the way and in numbers that people wanted, but it did work, considering at the time there were NO; as in "ZERO", Nein, Nyet, Nada, and Nix, (And I dont' mean Stevie), suitable alternatives "up north"

Good try. If the "Next Levelers" didn't attempt the Baltimore move, we wouldn't be in this position. Valley Forge was a bad weekend (4th of July weekend). Then five years of declining numbers in FB. Sorry Murphy – declining attendance = failure.

The BoD at the time could have easily negotiated to come back to the Host They chose to try and slug it out at FB with a long contract. If this was a business, I'd like to see what would happen to the person that agreed to the long contract.

Either way, it's a moot issue now. 2018 Historicon is back at the Host. Let's see if they sign a five year contract like they did at FB.

TheKing30 Supporting Member of TMP26 Apr 2017 8:09 p.m. PST

Dear The King 30

I only relate what I was told.

Could it be from a former BoD member??

Ottoathome26 Apr 2017 8:25 p.m. PST

Dear King 30

No, it was not. It was in all cases from people who I know you are in some cases good friends with and also highly respect, and are in point of fact wonderful gamers and contributors and diligent workers.

If these people were not trustworthy and well meaning, I would not have mentioned it.

But is any of this important?

Should it not be the society and the convention and the social appeal of the convention that is important?

TSD10126 Apr 2017 10:04 p.m. PST

I would be curious as to what percentage you get on this.

At the membership meeting, numbers were tossed out by the BoD. something like 2000 members, mailing it out to each of them for a cost in the neighborhood of 3 grand, and getting back 200-300 votes.

This needs to end. Voting should be done electronically through a trusted third party, and there should be a spot where candidates for BoD can write up a summary of what changes they want to make while in power.

Rangers Lead the Way26 Apr 2017 11:20 p.m. PST

Murphy, There are alternatives up north. Historicon needs to be in the metropolitan area. It needs to return to the Mother of all Wargaming Conventions. I do enjoy Fredricksburg but the support is just not there. Historicon just feels no different than Cold Wars of Fall-In. That is a problem.

War Scorpio27 Apr 2017 6:44 a.m. PST

Now I would say this discussion is getting interesting. Please note I do not know any of the Candidates personally.

Several here have mentioned the need to modernize the voting process, making it easier and more cost effective. IMO convention location and the contracts that are associated would be priority #1. More on this later. On voting, Dave Waxtel is the only one advocating online voting as I read all the bio's. I like that he was one of the founders of HMGS, and has put forth other cost cutting ideas helping the organization financially. Its worthwhile he attended Salute and Adepticon getting ideas and soliciting vendors, all on his own dime. Remember the nasty allegations right here on TMP about how he was using HMGS funds? An incumbent, David gets my vote.

On the other hand, IF, and I emphasize IF, there was a Southern Cabal attempting a coup as Otto surmises, Dudley Garidel most likely would be a member. Read his bio and make your own conclusion. The only thing that "will jump up and bite HMGS in the ass" is another bone headed decision like Baltimore when he was on the BOD. All "lies" as he claims? Sure he is a very nice guy and appreciate all his service, but Dudley will NOT get my vote.

Ed Mohrmann Supporting Member of TMP27 Apr 2017 7:55 a.m. PST

An interesting post from someone from Somerset,
NJ.

No agenda there, of course.

Dudley did good service on the BoD and, IMO, has the
qualifications necessary to make a good BoD member,
as he proved in his first stint on the BoD.

Disco Joe27 Apr 2017 8:02 a.m. PST

Can I then get a clarification of whose idea it was to move it to Baltimore and which members of the BOD at that time supported the move? Not trying to bring up issues. Just trying to understand.

holien27 Apr 2017 8:14 a.m. PST

It would be good to have a neutral explanation of that issue.

I have obviously seen many negative comments about the affair, but I am sure there are two sides to the story.

Especially after how I see some on TMP rewrite history that I know about… So would too like it if anyone could offer a balanced review of the affair.

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