"Warhammer 40K 8th is to be total revamp, return to roots" Topic

Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition Announced At Adepticon:
Movement, shooting, combat to return to Rogue Trader/2nd Roots
Implementing Age of Sigmar playstyles, battleshock

Warhammer Community : Warhammer 40,000 News from AdeptiCon
link

Some text from above article

It's been a great six months for Warhammer 40,000. The latest batch of FAQs helped improve everyone's enjoyment of the game and really clarified some of the key rules. And they were possible, in large part, thanks to the help of you guys and the rest of the online Warhammer 40,000 community. I think it's really great that we're now developing rules by engaging the community and working with people like Frankie and Reece from LVO, Mike from Nova and Hank, Greg, Chris and the rest of the AdeptiCon team.

So tonight we wanted to share with you some of the rules concepts that we're currently working on and give you a quick peek at some stuff that maybe you'll get to use this time next year at AdeptiCon.

3 Ways to Play

The [Age of Sigmar] General's Handbook has been one of the most popular rules supplements we've ever released. Who'd have thought letting people choose how they wanted to play their games and giving them a clear way to do that would be so popular…? It's pretty clear from talking to a number of event organisers, that Warhammer 40,000 would benefit from the same approach. So we'll soon be introducing the same 3 ways to play – open, narrative and matched play – to the 41st Millennium.

Army Selection

One of the things that comes up a lot is the idea that people should be rewarded for taking thematic armies. It's a sentiment we agree with and so we're looking at introducing Command points. A mechanism to reward players who structure their army like their in-world counterparts, with rerolls and cool army specific rules throughout the game.

Movement

We think the Move value should come back. No more default unit types. Every model should have cool bespoke rules. Not only would that be more fun, but it'll mean you will only need to learn the rules for your models.

Shooting

Armour save modifiers. This topic comes up almost as often as Sisters of Battle… so we're going to bring them back. Every weapon will have its place in your army and better represent how you imagine them working in your head.

Combat Phase

Charging units should fight first. It's just more thematic. So we're hoping to work this out as well. It will reward tactically outmaneuvering your opponent. You can dictate the combats rather than being entirely Initiative based. You control who swings first.

Morale

Its no longer all or nothing, and it affects everyone. We're thinking of replacing break tests with a simple mechanic. Roll a D6, add that to the number of models your unit has lost this turn, subtract your Leadership and take that many additional casualties.

My own personal take:

Age of the Emperor oh tra-la-la!

The New GW is brilliant and dynamic… they understand 40k really, really sucks and needs a total revamp.

They're also business-savvy…

1. 40k is about to get a giant influx of it's old-guard players who left after 4th/5th edition. All the old grognards like myself who started with RT and 2nd are about to invest our late-30's/early-40's income into GW again! I've spent more money on Age of Sigmar in the last 18 months that I had on GW product since 2005, and GW will get a few thousand dollars from me when 40k 8th drops.

2. none of the current 40k players will do much other than complain to the internet, but will dutifully buy the next edition just like they did when 7th came out a few minutes after 6th did.

I'm so, so happy to see GW return to the GW I fell in love with in the mid 90's.

With the exception of a few Necromunda and Space Hulk games, I've never been into GW. But if this makes the game more play-able, personal, and brings in more players, I'm all for it.

Maybe, just maybe, I will be interested again in W40K. Since 6th Edition I haven't played even one game. I found the rules convoluted and didn't make too much sense either. Also the codexes are just bat crazy stuff. There are so many exceptions to the exceptions that nothing makes sense anymore.

I only wish Ares would get this idea for X-Wing,I cannot fathom the appeal of using ships from different squadrons and classes to make a 'squad'!!!
I would reward players for using proper organisational units!

Yeah Battleshock is a stupid idea. I don't have major issues with the other changes, but battleshock is dumb.

Damon.

Wake me when the Squats come back.

Battleshock works just fine in AoS in my experience. GW is probably just aiming to move away from the Leadership system they purloined from Squad Leader/Johnny Reb.

ETA for V8 is June. Better save up our hard earned dollars. I think the plastic Sisters we've all been clamoring for over the last decade or so are finally due to arrive also.

I've never been a 40K player, but have played a few versions of Epic, and the LotR rules.

But this part reminds me of what I have always disliked about GW rules:

Every model should have cool bespoke rules. Not only would that be more fun, but it'll mean you will only need to learn the rules for your models.

I know lots of people feel it adds flavor, but it sure swirls around in my head. I'd like a version of LotR with a design system with abilities chosen from a list, but have never liked rules designed specifically for a figure.

andy

If GW follows the Age of Sigmar route, then 40k 8th rules will be free, along with the rules for all the units. Fingers crossed.

I like Battleshock a lot from AoS. You don't have to worry about units retreating, etc, and it more accurately represents a unit crumbling as stragglers and cowards flee, reducing the overall effectiveness. It's infinitely better and often less-punishing than the all-or-nothing Leadership roll.

This is going to be amazing!

When I see a release of Battlefleet Gothic, then I'll spend.

In my opinion, simpler is better for a squad level, tactical skirmish game. Basileus hit it on the head for me.

I am also one of those people that enjoyed older editions of both Fantasy and 40K. With the release of Age of Sigmar and the Battle for Vedros lines I found myself buying GW for the first time in years.
I am personally hoping that new 40K will be a blending of Vedros and AoS. My Autistic daughter has fun with both of those games, but I know "mainline" 40K would be overwhelming for her.

They were kidding about the square bases, right? With extra money they've demanded from 32mm bases and multiple codexes (codices?) and all the new models from AoS, I can't tell anymore…

You sure this isn't a little over a week too soon?

Wake me when the Squats come back.

Isn't that one of the signs of the Apocalypse? I'm sure frogs spatting onto your roof will have you up in plenty of time to see it.

WOW. Those are some great ideas. Some of them even new!

Generic movement and that stupid counter-intuitive, UN-FUN armor save were some of my biggest gripes with 3rd edition. And here they are mentioned, front and center.

I am intrigued, and await more news.

Re squats, don't joke. The new Dwarves for Age of Sigmar are very steampunk and only a very short hop from 40k squats.

I hope it retains the templates though. I love 6th edition WHFB, and I thoroughly enjoy AoS. About the only thing I miss in AoS is the use of templates.

Personally I'm highly skeptical about the proposed changes. As someone who's played since 1st edition, I don't welcome the return of save modifiers, as this would greatly increase the lethality of firepower in a game where one of the biggest complaints is how the game is often nothing more than deploying your models and then scooping them up as they die en masse on turns 1 and 2.

Also, having chargers strike first is going to result in a lot of time wasting microadjustments and measurements as people argue over every fraction of an inch in order to be able to get in the first charge.

What I think the designers will do is make Movement 6 the standard, with many units moving faster than that. They're going to speed up movement in an attempt to offset increased firepower due to save mods and try to make it easier to get into close combat, otherwise no one will ever be able to make it without deepstriking or something similar. Units that deepstrike will probably be allowed to charge from deepstrike as well.

The end result will be a very fast and bloody game that suits the needs of tourney players (who were extensively consulted in the development of 8th edition) but which throws out any "simulation" aspects which might have remained from the old days.

So they are killing off 40K just like they did with WFB.

Or giving a tired and stale game the reinvention it badly needed just like they did with AoS.

Interesting, not sure its taking 40K back to its roots as such. Granted I'm so far out of touch I went 'they removed armour save modifiers?' The idea of rewarding players for picking 'fluffy' armies seems like an overdue idea.

Still free or at least low cost digital download sounds good and might even temp me!

Actually, Beast Rampant, that's a misreading. The Reign of Frogs is a sign given to Muppets fans. Look for a crowned Kermit.

But for wargamers, when a manufacturer revises rules and you don't have to do any of the four R's--reorganize, rebase, retire units or replace them--you'll know that the Millenium has arrived, and the Squats will be arriving shortly by land train and tricycle.

Saw a rumor that vehicles are getting wounds & an armor save of some sort. Fer cryin out loud…

Damon.

Vehicles have had hull points for an edition or two already. So that wouldn't be anything new.

While I don't claim that 2nd was the be-all and end-all, it's vehicle rules were IMO by far the best iteration yet. Please don't give us Bolt Action's vehicle rules.

Bringing back the squats (in whatever form) will involve some petty es at GW to stop being huffy and eye-rollingly annoyed by 20 years of constant beseeching to put Space Dwarves back in the 40K universe.

If they can bury THAT particular hatchet, we may be able to come together Kum Ba Yah-style.

2nd edition 40K was the worse version an over complicated mess 3rd/4th edition 40K was IMO perfect so much so I haven't moved on from 4th even now.

The biggest problem with 40K for me for me was GWs ever increasing use of giant war machines and flyers (all the stuff that should be in epic) and forgetting 40K was supposed to be a platoon/company sized game rather than 28mm epic. If recent AOS releases are anything to by I guess the new 40K will continue this trend.

Oh and the morale rules seem abstract in the extreme. Looks like the new edition will take special rules to the a new level with bespoke rules and cool army specific rules. While I like a few special rules for theme these are normally the area that causes the most issues the more special rules there are the more rules conflicts it normally creates.

2nd edition 40K was the worse version an over complicated mess

It may not have been to your liking, but I have no idea how it was over-complicated. It is concurrent with WFB 4th, which was the least-complex of that line.

The biggest problem with 40K for me for me was GWs ever increasing use of giant war machines and flyers (all the stuff that should be in epic) and forgetting 40K was supposed to be a platoon/company sized game rather than 28mm epic.

I wholeheartedly agree. Which is why they need Epic back, to exorcise some of those demons.

If they have any sense, they will tailor it to all size forces, from very small (quickie game, beginner, and/or "this is all I have put together so far") as well as enormous ones. Selling "bigger, bigger, bigger" has gotten tiresome, and discouraging to novices.

To be fair, the huge increase in army size isn't all GW's fault – players will naturally want to field bigger and bigger armies as their collections grow.

This is why GW is also pushing their upcoming skirmish game. The Horus Heresy rules also provide alternate rules for skirmish games – the "Tactical Strike" subrules set, but in the end, it's the players themselves who go for "orthodoxy" and always wind up trapped in the mindset that they MUST play standard scenarios with big armies on sparse tabletops.

Its no longer all or nothing, and it affects everyone. We're thinking of replacing break tests with a simple mechanic. Roll a D6, add that to the number of models your unit has lost this turn, subtract your Leadership and take that many additional casualties.

This is just plain stupid.

Plus they are going to bring back special rules for units again.

Armor Save modifers – They got rid of those because Marines were dying all over the place.

So are they going to give back the extra 12" of range that they took away from the Eldar Shurikan Catapults?

I've noticed that as GW killed WFB Mantic had Kings of War 2 ready, now they may mess up the 40K universe just as Warpath is coming out. Are Mantic and GW working together to ensure they don't step on each others toes in a game space? (Conspiracy theory hat off).

The changes proposed may tempt me to move my old GW miniatures off the bottom of the boxes they are in and have my Orks rampage across the galaxy (or will they be Space Orruks now?)

To be fair, the huge increase in army size isn't all GW's fault – players will naturally want to field bigger and bigger armies as their collections grow.

That's called "natural growth". GW neither mandated nor specifically encouraged me to have over a dozen WFB and 40K armies, and every Man-o-War and Necromunda faction, but I did anyway.

they've (almost) always been great at making you WANT MORE of their minis. So, why the hard sell?

So are they going to give back the extra 12" of range that they took away from the Eldar Shurikan Catapults?

Yep, and -2 save and Following Fire. Die, round-ear!!!

If the rules are free I will check it out.

If they are not they can keep it. Their rules is my second biggest tripe with GW.

The prices are number one.

I'm roughly in agreement with Mitochondria. I don't need all the extras, and won't be shelling out for any more codicies, but if they go AoS-style free starter army lists and rules I'll give it a shot. I've enjoyed using my old 40k armies with other rules (most recently had alot of fun with 1page40k), and would definitely give a lighter rulesset of official 40k a shot.

I do agree with those who say heading towards 2nd edition 40k is a bad idea. 2nd edition 40k was a fiddly, over-complicated mess, even when playing at a small platton level. Check out my less-than-inspiring experience from a couple years ago giving 2nd edition 40k a try….
link

All that said, the 2nd edition mechanics worked great for a super-small-skrmish game like necromunda!

I love 2nd edition, but then again I started playing 40K in 1993 when this edition came out and first experiences tend to be the most nostalgically memorable.

As a D&D player turned miniature gamer, I can't say 2nd ed. is overly complicated. It's just that 40K became much more simplified starting with 3rd edition (which I didn't like). What some of you call unnecessary "complexity" actually adds flavor and character to the myriad races and forces in the 40K-verse which later editions lacked. I miss using different sided dice and rolling D10+D6+8 for resolving krak missile penetration and 3D6+9 for lascannon penetration. It's boring rolling D6 all the time.

The disadvantage with 2nd edition is that it will be bogged down with the number of miniatures people typically use today, but that doesn't mean certain elements of 2nd edition can't make a comeback.

Well stated. Thank you.

The other side to this for me is the fluff/background I've never been a competition gamer and always preferred narrative style games.

I loved the background setting for WFB and the biggest thing that turned me off AOS wasn't the rules changes (hell I've been playing GW games since 2nd edition WFB I'm used to rule changes)but the complete re-writing of the background fluff I just couldn't get on with it. The same goes for 40K I love the grimdark bleak setting the destruction of Cadia, the return of a Primarch and the Ynnead story all look like heralding big changes that have my alarm bells ringing.

Of course for a lot of gamers the background stuff isn't that important as long as they are getting that new Baneblade/Stompa/knight on the table they are happy.

The big problem with 40k is all the rules that just got added and added as time went on.

I think a complete reset is what it needs.

I like the core rules of 7th edition 40k. However they have added a lot of exceptions and the codecii aren't balanced (internally or externally). One of the things I like about Age of Sigmar is that they have simple core rules and the datasheets contain the rules to make units different. In addition the units are a lot more balanced. Some units that would have never been used in WHFB 8th edition can be used without handicapping yourself. I pretty much just want myself and everyone else to use the cool models they have bought and painted without the unit being combat ineffective or so cheesy it is considered rude to even use. AoS has fixed that and I hope Age of Guillimon does too.

@Garand that is just a rumor, probably wishlisting. The only actual official news is from the link in the original post. That's all the info anyone has.

I am eager to hear more. Have they given a ballpark release date? Will it even be this year?

I welcome a complete rewrite of 40k.

Making 40k, which is an inelegant, horribly broken, poorly written and designed ruleset, actually playable? Everyone loves their rose-tinted glasses, but 40k has never really been a _good_ game, from Rogue Trader on up. Even at it's finest, it was entirely mediocre, still comprised of various cobbled together mechanics stolen from other systems. Cross-referencing charts, sometimes rolling dice higher, sometimes rolling dice under, sometimes rolling multiple dice and adding them together. Terrible. This complete overhaul is 15 years late, but definitely needed.

It may even get me to play 40k again!

I want a reason to buy those beautiful Genestealer Cult models…

@The Beast Rampant
in the interview they stated people would be playing it by next Adepticon, so it will be released before next March.

@Dust Warrior
There is a 100% chance your theory is correct, and there's no way around it. Current GW design studio people include former Mantic employees. Current Mantic people include former GW employees. All the Nottingham crew all still hang out and play games together. Jervis & Paul & Alessio & Ronnie & Michael & Alan & Rick & Andy & Gav and so on and so forth. All the Warlord and GW and Mantic designers are all still friends.

Thanks, JD.

Judge Doug:

Brilliant anaylsis of 40K through the ages – ad hoc cobbled together and a bit tedious. Still do to marketing and miniatures a huge success. Many 40K players don't play anything else and just assume this is the best game designers can do.

Company learned early that game design and play testing are time consuming and expensive and have little effect on the bottom line.

Until gamers demand fewer pictures and better designs this won't change.

TomT

I've played many, many different rule sets (historical/fantasy/sci-fi) there is nothing particularly wrong with GW rules they may not be massively innovative or original but they are usually playable, relatively simple to pick up and fun (even 2nd edition 40K who I'm not a massive fan off had its moments) and I've played plenty of rules who couldn't manage those criteria.

The main issue with GW rules are gamers who need to push the rules to breaking point in search of a win and the inevitable rules issues that result from the latest new codex.

so it will be released before next March.

But not before they can squeeze as much money out of their Fanboyz by putting out things that will end up being dropped.

So what individuals have to look forward is every single unit having it own set of special rules.

They will also more than likely increase the total number of dice that you can roll, because the more you roll the better you should do.