"Did the Military Make San Francisco Gay?" Topic

During WWII, something called the "blue discharge" (because it was printed on blue paper) was used to remove undesirable soldiers from the military. While this included those who proved incapable of being trained, the blue discharge was also used to remove gay soldiers from the service without going through the court-martial process. It also seems to have been used as a way to remove black soldiers, probably due to prejudice.

An unintended consequence of this policy was that ex-servicemen found it difficult to obtain work in the civilian sector if they had a blue discharge, because it was known to be undesirable. There was even a code that employers could look up which would identify which soldiers were given a blue discharge for homosexuality.

Wikipedia notes: "It has been suggested that the large gay populations in port cities like San Francisco, Chicago and New York City are in part the result of the blue discharge. The theory asserts that many gay blue-ticket veterans from smaller urban or rural areas who felt they were unable to return to their home communities because of the shame associated with their discharges relocated to larger areas with established gay subcultures or simply stayed in the city through which they were returned to the United States.[31]" link

Uh, yeah… right. Had nothing to do with the alternative lifestyle movement of the 60's. It was all the military's doing….

Interesting theory. NYC already had a large, established gay community by the 1920s, well before WWII, but I don't know if San Francisco did or not.

Also, aside from all the ethical and civil rights issues, what a waste of manpower, kicking out thousands of troops for that reason.

But meanwhile, back to wargaming…

Seriously? Nothing good will come from this, witness the second post for example.

Surely your account has been hacked by the Russians….

Hear, hear, John Treadaway ! It's really sad to see how sometimes items on TMP seem to sink to ridiculous depths…

Really Bill?

Don't get me wrong, folks: I have visited SF loads of times; stayed in the city; stayed in the local area (I have relatives there) and love the place.

I just don't see what the question has to do with wargaming…

More pertinent wargaming questions:

Why do Bay Area residents get riled up when you say "Frisco"?

And did the military really make Rice-A-Roni the San Francisco Treat?

Seriously, Bill, what are you thinking in starting a thread like this? Nuke this. Please.

DH bait.

Seriously, Bill, what are you thinking in starting a thread like this?

It's military history, guys. Grow up!

How to make a bunch of nerdy 50-somethings feel awkward.

Grow up!

You know, I don't think anyone in this thread so far has been particularly immature, so that was quite unnecessary.

My thoughts are the 60's counter culture attracted alternative lifestyles to San Fran. They were very liberal even in the 70's. So, people that want to be tolerated moved with their feet.
Just my thoughts.

It's military history, guys. Grow up!

This is said to a bunch of men who still play with toy soldiers…

I don't think SF needed the military to be gay. Its liberal politics and social permissiveness simply made it a natural refuge for gays at a time when they're stigmatized and unable to live their alternative lifestyles in more conservative communities.

Military history, Bill ? Then why not ask the question
of San Diego (outport for TONS of overseas shipments
in WWII), or New Orleans (another outport)

And on and on and on…

Normally, I'm a 'Bill's house, Bill's rules' type, but
this has 'jumped the shark'

I think international port cities have always been more culturally eclectic. So probably merely a contributing factor. Interesting though.

this has 'jumped the shark'

I pretty much have to go with that …

This is said to a bunch of men who still play with toy soldiers…

Very good point, I try to say that more often now since being a denizen on TMP and in the past being a frequent internee in the DH, etc., …

Bottom line … it's about grown men/boys playing with toys …

But meanwhile, back to wargaming…

Todd McLeister

Really Bill?

In a very, very rare case I agree with you …

Legion 4:

I nearly busted my gut laughing when I read the following:

Bottom line … it's about grown men/boys playing with toys …

I surmise you meant gamers, but it could equally apply to gay men too.

Thank you for the giggles.

Cheers.
Rod Robertson.

The military may not have made SF gay, but they've certainly made Aldershot drab.
Not fair really; I have n't been there in 30 years.

Then why not ask the question
of San Diego (outport for TONS of overseas shipments
in WWII), or New Orleans (another outport)

because San Francisco has "fabulous!" written all over it?

SD is conservative but NO isn't. It's known for Mardi Gras after all.

My guess would be that San Francisco really got its start in that direction during the Gold Rush, being a magnet for all sorts of unstable dreamers and social outcasts. Back before political correctness set in, the populace of neighboring western states had a standing joke about California being "the land of fruits and nuts."

Wow, I'd think you'd have to DH yourself for that inflammatory title.

So is the US military responsible for "Man Love Thursday" in Afghanistan too?

Wolfhag

correlation =/= causastion

Did the military design San Francisco street cars to be ersatz Unarmored Personnel Carriers to be commandeered and Federalized in times of national emergency…?

Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor.

Now think about it; that does not make sense! Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing.

Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense!

V/R,
Jack

Just Jack:

Wookies =/= wok-E's? Just rearrange the letters and the connection is there…. if you're a letter-bender!

Cheers.
Rod Robertson.

I'm not sure if people here can't use calendars, know absolutely nothing about the history of San Francisco, or some combination thereof.

Talking about SF's miles in the mid-60s to late 70s makes no sense when addressing a question about the 40s. Just watching Milk would make it apparent how much discrimination and violence gays in SF faced in that period.

SF was tremendously conservative for the first half of the 20th century. The Socialist/conservative battle was resolved there earlier than in southern California (and if you know about the socio-economic-political situation in LA and it's surroundings, much of the population saw no hope outside of the socialist political movement--for good reason.

YMCA-Ayyy!

TMP link

youtu.be/QINoUyrP0BI

I surmise you meant gamers, but it could equally apply to gay men too.

Thank you for the giggles.

Well I'm glad someone got it … I wanted to try to treat every one equally !

I'd rather be a Lumberjack!

SD is conservative

Which is why it is a "sanctuary city"…

Very interesting and yet an obviously controversial topic. I've never been to the place (and hardly have a desire to) but from what I heard and seen it is full of weirdos and is completely out of control.

If someone does want to move in and take up residency there then its up to the inhabitancy to accept them or kick them the Hell out.

As I mentioned, the reasons why the Ewoks were so eager to accept Chewbacca has been the topic of much debate over the years but its beyond debate that most of their present problems stem from that terrible mistake.

Maybe. Probably not.

Ewoks are a dwarf species of wookie.
Living on a moon as opposed to a planet is probably the Star Wars version of insular dwarfism.

Even their names are (flawed) anagrams.

BTW the banality of my post, whilst on a different subject, fits in well with the banality of this thread.

Anyone seen "Baby Blue Marine" movie?

I think it is an interesting question, Bill, but apparently one unsuited for much of the membership on TMP. Your question would be right at home with any actual military historian, but TMP is mostly of the "those buttons were pewter not brass, you bastard" sort of scholarship, with little interest in social history of the military. I am sure Geoffrey Parker, whose first work focused on camp followers and logistics of the Spanish army of Flanders in the Dutch Revolt, could give you an answer, and I know that Stephen Ambrose would find that interesting from having met him several times while in graduate school, but TMP is better suited for questions about cartridge belts and stovepipe hats.

San Francisco is gay??
I never noticed.

oh, and btw, Bill, if one of us told someone to "grow up" you would DH them.
I know its "your rules" etc, but we'd all have a bit more respect for them if you observed them yourself.

christot – lol :D but to the DH with you I fear!

This is about wargaming ?

Give me a break.

@Mardaddy

SD city may be, but not the county at large.

On Nov 4, 2008 San Diego County voted 53.8% for Proposition 8 which amended the California Constitution to ban same-sex marriages, thus restoring Proposition 22 which was overturned by a ruling from the California Supreme Court. However the city of San Diego, along with Del Mar, Encinitas, and Solana Beach, voted against Proposition 8.

Excerpted from here: link

Why do Bay Area residents get riled up when you say "Frisco"?

Ssshhhhh! Don't say that! Are you trying to get this web site shut down?!?

- Ix

Big cities have the particular effect that a whole bunch of people from different walks of life get stuffed together and you pretty much have to figure it out.

Hence, they tend to adopt various degrees of tolerance because well, what else can you do?

Taking the train in Oregon, it wasn't unusual see a cross dresser, a Japanese business man in a suit, a hipster kid and a little old Russian lady sitting together and nobody raised an eyebrow.

This is about wargaming ?

Give me a break.

Wargaming includes the discussion of military history.

LOL !!!!!