donkey1 | 21 Mar 2017 1:17 p.m. PST |
A beginner, looking at Romans, probably Polybian. What rule sets would you recommend I look at. Looking for something that is beginner friendly but not over simplified. Cheers, Nigel |
Puddinhead Johnson | 21 Mar 2017 1:37 p.m. PST |
That's like asking what rules set for WW2 Germans. The answer is "any". |
Olivero | 21 Mar 2017 1:44 p.m. PST |
"Almost" any… there are period-specific rules that might not include Polybian Roman (but few indeed). People will recommend DBA, Ancient and Medieval Wargaming, Commands & Colors: Ancients etc. Best would be if people mentioned why they think their preferred rule set fits the bill. |
kodiakblair | 21 Mar 2017 1:47 p.m. PST |
Simon MacDowall's Legio VI. link Written just for Roman wars and there's 3 sets. Very Early Republic, Late Republic/Early Imperial and Later Imperial |
sillypoint | 21 Mar 2017 2:11 p.m. PST |
Might of Arms- Romans have some manoeuvre advantages in the rules. |
donkey1 | 21 Mar 2017 2:26 p.m. PST |
Okay, understood. So lets not say specifically for Romans. Have DBA – will probably give it a go but don't put off by its chess-like nature. So have seen things like Hail Caesar Field of Glory I quite like the figures sold by ForgedinBattle and they refer to the War & Empire rules. I can see that it was a Kickstarter originally but I'm not sure that the rules ever came out – can't find them anywhere. What others are worth looking at. Cheers, Nigel |
advocate | 21 Mar 2017 3:11 p.m. PST |
I like Sword and Spear, which has a lot of interactive decision making and straightforward combat rules. But you don't get to do 'everything with everyone' every turn. |
Legbiter | 21 Mar 2017 3:20 p.m. PST |
Commands and Colors. This is also the answer to "What's the best rules set for x", where x is any given imaginable land-based combat simulation. |
Gunfreak | 21 Mar 2017 3:27 p.m. PST |
I like hail ceasar, the rules also have army lists to buy if your interested. They have army lists for roman Kingdom, early/mid Republic, late republic and early empire. I don't remember if it also had late empire. |
arsbelli | 21 Mar 2017 3:33 p.m. PST |
The War & Empire rules have not yet been released. The response to an enquiry I sent back in December stated that "they are nearly completed and ready to be laid out then printed, they are looking good and should be ready in the new year." After having played Ancients with at least 20 different rule sets over 30+ years, I really enjoy Swordpoint, by Gripping Beast: link I like the writing and presentation of the rulebook, the size of battles and scalability of the rules. The level of abstraction hits my personal 'sweet spot,' providing plenty of 'period feel' without slowing down the game with too much fiddly detail. Whether or not Swordpoint or some other rule set would meet your gaming needs and preferences depends on how well the rules and mechanics match up with your own personal gaming preferences. How many figures do you plan to field for your battles? Different Ancients rule sets for mass battles can call for armies as small as 24-48 figures on the low end, to as many as 200-450 figures or more on the high end. Swordpoint calls for battles with roughly 100-250 figures per side, although larger armies will also work perfectly well. What kind of turn system do you prefe, IGO-UGO, simultaneous, card driven, or something else? In Swordpoint, players dice for movement initiative, while shooting and combat are simultaneous. Do you want your tabletop troops to follow your orders automatically at all times, or do you like to have somewhat less control through the use of limited command points, throwing dice to see if your orders are followed, or some other form of command 'friction?' Swordpoint does not limit or interfere with your ability to command your troops, although you can attempt to influence initiative and combat through the use of Momentum tokens. Do you enjoy rules in which combat and other tactical processes are dealt with in detail (process oriented), or ones in which many of those details are abstracted into a few factors and/or die rolls (result oriented), or something in between? For example, for your Polybian Romans, would you prefer representing legionary line exchange by the process of physically moving units of figures around, or would you be satisfied with representing the results in a simpler, more abstract way? Swordpoint definitely falls into the latter camp, representing the benefits of Roman line exchange by increasing simply the stamina of legionary units. Those are just a few examples. Are there other rules mechanics that are definite 'must haves' or 'no goes' for you and/or your fellow players? Hopefully you will find these questions to be of some help as you mull over the many available options. Best of luck in your search! |
cj1776 | 21 Mar 2017 3:39 p.m. PST |
To the Strongest by Simon Miller. Lots of free army lists on his website-Romans are well represented. Fast playing and easy to learn,check out the rules forum for some more info. |
donkey1 | 21 Mar 2017 4:20 p.m. PST |
Simultaneous, 100-250 figures pe side would sound like a good star to me. Will have a look at Swordpoint. Cheers, Nigel |
BigRedBat | 21 Mar 2017 4:50 p.m. PST |
Polybians are a tricky list to make work because one wants to reflect the three lines of the Roman legion, not to mention the velites. This can mean that the Romans can end up with a narrow but extremely deep battle line- I do recall how, back in the 1980s, my pair of legions formed up 16cm wide, in total, with the rest of the 6' battlefield held by three tiny units of Tarentines. :-) In TtS I think I have managed to come up with a nifty Polybian line-relief mechanism… works well, is simple and fun. link The Romans perform pretty well but beware a phalanx on the flat… |
Sobieski | 21 Mar 2017 6:18 p.m. PST |
I always remind myself that Scipio, the one Roman general who could count to eleven without taking his underwear off, was quite ready to scrap the triplex acies if he needed a broad front. If he recognised the necessity, we needn't blush to do the same. |
wrgmr1 | 21 Mar 2017 6:38 p.m. PST |
Armati 2, has single size armies approximately 150 figures and double sized armies at 300 or so. Good solid set for all periods of Rome. |
TKindred | 21 Mar 2017 7:00 p.m. PST |
Basic Impetus, or Impetus. |
redmist1122 | 21 Mar 2017 7:02 p.m. PST |
Another plug for Might of Arms…free download too. My go-to rule set for Ancients and Romans. P. |
Deuce03 | 21 Mar 2017 7:24 p.m. PST |
I always remind myself that Scipio, the one Roman general who could count to eleven without taking his underwear off… Scipio had eleven fingers? :o |
Skeptic | 21 Mar 2017 9:33 p.m. PST |
Allen Curtis's Hannibal supplement for Warhammer Ancient Battles had some good ideas in it. Might they have continued into the lists for War & Conquest? |
10mm Wargaming | 22 Mar 2017 2:46 a.m. PST |
|
Who asked this joker | 22 Mar 2017 6:07 a.m. PST |
Honestly, the kind of rules you like would fit the bill. I'd start with "What do people like to play in my area" and work up from there. At least do the basing for those games and then introduce other games if you like using the same basing. "Ancient and Medieval Wargaming" by Neal Thomas is a fine choice. Fun game that is quite beginner friendly. |
boy wundyr x | 22 Mar 2017 6:59 a.m. PST |
Might of Arms or Commands and Colors would be my first two thoughts too, but I'd also throw out Classical Hack as a rule set that is more specific to the period in question. Make sure you get the second edition though, though the first is also available as a cheap pdf. |
Khusrau | 22 Mar 2017 8:08 a.m. PST |
Generally speaking I would start with 'what scale?' – 'what are people in your area playing?' – 'what rulesets are compatible with that basing?' The sheer number of rule-sets that represent Polybians would be probably at least 50-60 sets, 10 of which are commonly played, such as 'To the Strongest', 'ADLG', 'Hail Caesar', 'De Bellis Magistrorum Militum (DBMM)' etc etc.. Realistically, there are so many variables that it's probably worth developing some kind of flowchart.. for example :- 'how many manoeuevre units should you have? how much of the table should arrows reach, and so on. |
davbenbak | 23 Mar 2017 4:20 a.m. PST |
AMW by Neal Thomas is a great set but a bit expensive these days. You might try his "Introduction to Wargaming" which is a sort of AMW lite (along with rules for some other eras) but easy to play with the number of figures you prefer. I think with a tweek to armor ratings and allowing Polybian Romans units to pass through they do a great job of giving a period feel to beginners. |
Mars Ultor | 23 Mar 2017 5:20 a.m. PST |
I'd second the suggestion by "Joker" above so that you actually get to play battles. As noted many times above, there are so many ancients rules that you must either make converts or win the lottery in finding another player of the same system near you. Allen Curtis' Polybian relief system from WAB lives on in Clash of Empires, a very good successor system that (sadly) just faces too much competition. Too complicated for some, but actually a few games and it's easy. We still play this one in our area. |
Bellbottom | 23 Mar 2017 5:54 a.m. PST |
Justin Taylors Alea Iacta Est rules gave a good representation of Roman line replacement. The are quite fast too, and designed for large actions in the Hellenistic and Roman periods. We played Carrhae and Bagradas in a single day. |
Legionarius | 11 Sep 2020 11:18 a.m. PST |
To The Strongest. Clean and easy and subtle. |
MichaelCollinsHimself | 15 Sep 2020 12:04 a.m. PST |
Go to Rome and ask them ! |
Marcus Brutus | 15 Sep 2020 5:25 a.m. PST |
I have played many rules sets and have found none that adequately show the Roman system in the Punic Wars. I played Bagradas at Cold Wars using TTS and didn't think it did a good job with line exchange. Not faulting TTS. I play Impetus which I think is a great set but I don't think it models this particular army very well either. Probably the hardest army of the ancient world to properly depict. |
Asteroid X | 16 Sep 2020 8:11 p.m. PST |
Marcus Brutus, have you tried the Warhammer Ancient Battles supplement on Hannibal? |
BigRedBat | 17 Sep 2020 3:32 a.m. PST |
I played Bagradas at Cold Wars using TTS and didn't think it did a good job with line exchange. Hi Marcus, you probably used the previous line exchange system. I introduced a new "quincunx" system in March/April, which I think is pretty unique, because I've now integrated hastati, principes and triarii into a single, deep unit, so it might be worth another look. It's in the army list book under Polybian (and Camillan) Romans. link |
Marcus Brutus | 17 Sep 2020 3:49 p.m. PST |
I don't play WAB so the supplement doesn't really mean anything to me. I took a look at your Polybian Roman rule and I think you are heading in the right direction. Something between a large unit and two single stand units. Assuming that the Triarii are detached can the Hastati relieve the Principes later in the battle or is the line relief a one time action? |
BigRedBat | 18 Sep 2020 1:22 a.m. PST |
Hi Marcus, no each relief can only be conducted once. But the formation can also rally in the usual manner. We find it works well- the legions are truly formidable, fighting to the front. But the quincunx cost quite a lot so the wings tend to be vulnerable. |
Bellerophon1993 | 19 Sep 2020 10:56 a.m. PST |
To the Strongest is my rec. Simple and fun. |
bandrsntch | 19 Sep 2020 8:56 p.m. PST |
Tactica II, easy to learn, difficult to master. Has a good simulation of the manipular legion in battle. Can be purchased from On Military Matters. |
MichaelCollinsHimself | 22 Sep 2020 2:04 a.m. PST |
My rules, Bella Contra Barbaros for the period 100BC – 100AD are very Roman-specific. It has rules for Roman battle arrays, in cohorts, manouevres and passage of lines specifically for the period. Warbands (them`s the Barbaros) have their own command and control and manoeuvre rules. link |
MichaelCollinsHimself | 26 Sep 2020 1:38 a.m. PST |
One of the photo-illustrations of Roman manoeuvres from my rules showing a passage of lines by a legion in duplex aces:
|
Lascaris | 04 Oct 2020 4:26 p.m. PST |
I'm happy with how Field of Glory (FOG) does it. The Hastati and Principe are lumped together and the Triarii are a separate unit. For anything other than skirmish gaming I think the line swapping etc is too low level to bother modeling. |
MichaelCollinsHimself | 10 Oct 2020 5:13 a.m. PST |
When half an Imperial legion forms one line, it`s hardly low-level! And as for a Republican legion, the lines are even more significant, as they represent troops of varying ages and tactical characteristics; the value of lumping them together is questionable. |