"Non-zero sum games" Topic

I'm looking for some suggestions on cooperative / non-zero sum games. My search-fu seems to have failed me on this topic. I want to have our boy scout troop play a bit and learn that there are win-win situations out there.

Criteria:
1. free or cheap: it's coming out of my pocket, and we'll probably only play a few times.
2. print and play preferable: We've got an outing this weekend that promises lots of rain, so I need it fast.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Perhaps you could provide a bit more information about what sort of game you are looking for?

In my experience, non-zero sum games are not games that you actually play. They are more about a method of understanding game theory. Here are three examples:

Prisoner's Dilemma
Chicken and Volunteer's Dilemma
Deadlock and Stag Hunt

Google them and you'll see what I mean.

Or are you talking about games where all players are cooperating towards an end?

For a whole scout troop? Hmmm. Maybe an RPGs of some sort?

As for cooperative board games, here's a few suggestions. However, free? No. Cheap? No. These are board games.

One of the best boxed cooperative games I've played is Lord of the Rings, by Reiner Knizia and released in 2000.

Wikipedia Link: link

First time we gamers played, we were our usual competitive selves. I don't think we made it out of Bree. Then the light bulb went off and we played cooperatively. Defeated often, but won some times. As you play, you get better at interpreting the results of various obstacles.

Another great cooperative game is Pandemic.

Basically, on a Risk-like board, your team hops around the globe trying to stamp out epidemics. Part resource allocation, part gambles…

Wikipedia Link:
link

I only placed the base versions of LOTR and P, not with any of the expansion packs.

Then there's the Harry Potter Hogwarts Battle game. Here's my review of it for my newsletter:

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Harry Potter Hogwarts Battle Game

This is a cooperative game pitting the main characters against the game system. I randomly drew Ron, John drew Hermione, and each have special abilities that can help during the game.

The system uses cards for minor bad guys, major bad guys,
and good guy resources (money, items, and allies). You flip a new minor bad guy card, do whatever dastardly act it says, check the major bad guy card for more dastardly acts, and then play resource cards to gain money to buy more resource cards and do heroic acts.

Most dastardly acts involve trying to kill you, only this is a politically correct game, so when a player loses all 10 Heart Points (aka, hit points), the character does NOT die, but gets stunned. And not the kind of stun that happens to Norwegian Blue Parrots. A stun makes the character lose one turn and then recovery brings back the 10 Hear Points.

Bad guys have a variable number of Heart Points, but when Ron, Hermione, or Harry casts enough lightning bolts to equal the bad guy's HP, the bad guy is down and out permanently.

I'm not sure what this says about Hogwarts society.

To win, you kill off all the major bad guys.

If the bad guys win enough times, and I can't remember exactly how, the location card flips (I think we start out on the train) and then TWO minor bad guys show up per turn.

If you blow this part, then the third location shows up and the bad guys win. I'm a bit fuzzy on the details because we played well, trading off lightning bolts and, wait for it, heart attacks, to crunch the bad guys. Hermione stunned once, although Ron was down to his last HP at times. Exciting resource management there! You really need to work together to zap all the bad guys. Quite entertaining.

Note that this was the introductory game, level 1 so to speak. Or, should I say, book 1. The game has seven levels with ever increasing nasty bad guys. One version of the don't-name-him bad guy has 20 HPs. I think you really need a third and fourth player to tackle the upper levels, er, books.

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Finally, if you have a computer (boom box does NOT work), Space Alert is a time-sensitive cooperative game of playing different members of a starship bridge crew. Board game has a CD (playable only as a computer file…this is NOT an audio CD you can play on a boombox). Note, you can download a PDF with a timed sequence of play, but one person should be the timekeeper/umpire and not play.

Basically, as audio 'alerts' come in (via CD), you move your crew member around the board and allocate resources to stave off various disasters.

Wikipedia Link:
link

Each of the above is a four-player game. I've played LOTR lots of times, the others only once or twice.

Most of Two Hour Wargames' lineup has some sort of cooperative play option, but everyone's on the same side vs. an automated opponent.

Dead of winter board game, take out traitor cards? Everyone wins or loses together, then there are individual goals. Downside is 5 players and it's not free.

Two Hour Wargames has bunches of games with a cooperative mode, as Boy Wundr mentioned.

You could also take most any rules set and play out a human wave assault, with the game running the attackers (who could humans, zombies, robots, bugs…) and the players all running the defenders.

There are quite a few cooperative board games, but they are not cheap. Pandemic and its progeny (I saw Cthulhu Pandemic recently, and nearly lost a SAN point!) are probably $40 USD each, and can only accommodate 4 players. I've only played basic Pandemic, and I highly recommend it for challenging cooperative play.

Shadows over Camelot is another great game, and it has room for more players (8, I think, but I'm not sure), but it must be in the $40 USD+ range. There is also a Cthulhu-based cooperative board game and one set in a weird wild west, but I've forgotten the names.

Somewhere between cooperative and competitive games are games played together where each player is trying to maximize his or her own outcome, but not affecting any of the other players. Blackjack and craps are two good examples. The rules are free and the components are very cheap. And nothing says "having a great time together" like a dozen Boy Scouts screaming "7!" around the craps table.

@ Russ Lockwood and whitphoto, thanks for the suggestions, I'll look into them. I've played Pandemic (once), that's kind of what I was shooting for.

@ Oberlindes Sol LIC, ummm, yeah, I'm going to have to look over the policy manual on that one, but thanks for the suggestion. :)

Well, our troop is only 14 boys, so not huge. I was trying to stay away from RPGs because I think half of them would lose interest pretty quickly (attention span of a gnat). So a board or table for them to focus on might help.

I guess I don't have a clearly defined goal in mind (hoping something would present itself), but I want the kids to figure out that they have to work together to win. Think Munchkin when one player is about to win, everyone else starts trading and working together to keep him down.

If you're dealing with that many potential players, you might look into One Night Ultimate Werewolf. It's mostly cooperative (except for the wolf), and designed to handle a group.

Buried Treasure. Each group of 3-4 scouts has a compass and directions for 1/5 of the course. No one knows which set of directions is used first. Can be played in a large yard, or field. Use the compass for directions, and make the "clues" refer to N,S,E,W directions.

I used to use this with my sons scouts when they were younger.

Make the clues or distances variable on each set of directions (ex. pace off 10-steps in a N direction, but don't define step lengths)

Cheap and can last a long time while they figure things out.

The definition of a non-zero sum game is where one player's gain (or loss) does not necessarily result in the other players' loss (or gain). In other words, where the winnings and losses of all players do not add up to zero and everyone can gain: a win-win game.

Read more: link

I am interested to know which of the games recommended in this thread satisfy that definition?

Dear Stryderg

I was a scout all my life until I moved over to assistant scoutmastering and I tried all sorts of war gaming when younger. I understand what you are talking about with attention span, and also would advise that ANY sort of standard war game as those on this list might suggest would die the death of a dog. I understand what you are looking for, team building and personal development. That's not to be found in war gaming where ego and self aggrandizement amount to a disease.

I would suggest an older rule system I found that is an EXCELENT cooperative game that requires almost no equipment and no set up and the kids can take part from day one. This is a game called "Prime-Time Adventures." It's a game where all the participants, even to an extent, the GM participate in both designing the plot and background of a television series, which can be in ANY subject you desire from sitcom to adventure story, and the game progresses, once the basic set up is agreed upon, in episodic style with the various participants taking the part of actors bot outside the store and INSIDE IT! That is they actually design and play the series episodes. Each person is more or less equal and the "conflict" in the game is between the players on the twists and turns of the story as cooked up in the players imagination. A wild car-chase or the classic everyone sitting around the formal dinner while the inscrutable Chinese detective lays out what happened are possible.

It's a great game and it's completely cooperative. Another game like this is a game on the tales of Baron Munchausen, where the gamers put up tall tales and try and get them past the critical board of the other players.

I heartily recommend Prime Time advetures though. Had some of the best fun ever in gaming from this.

There is a commercial game out there called "Once upon a Time" which has several expansion sets, but it's a cooperative game where players combine to develop a fairy tale or folk tale.

Hope this helps.

Munchkin is not cooperative, but it was extremely popular with our Venture Crew. Also King Fu Fighting from Slugfest was a big hit. It is no longer available, but you can find copies in EBay. The new Slugfest game. , Attack in Graport is supposed to be cooperative. Have you thought of simple things like Apoles to Apples and Bananagrams?

@ Ottoathome
Thanks for the suggestions, and yes, that's what I'm after (and exposing the kids to something other than video games).

@ surdu2005
I had not thought of those…but I'll be looking into them now.

Thanks for the suggestions, all.

I know you are working with limited time and resources but I have a thought that could be applied to whatever "game" you decide on. I've worked with Junior Achievement, church youth groups and Cub/Boy Scouts so I've suffered through some self-inflicted errors on activity nights.

My suggestion is to try to add some physical participation to go along with the actual game play. A player may have to hold onto and use some object related to the tasks at hand. You could have the players rotate around the game or even switch characters within their group. Have a random event every once in a while that causes them to have to sing/perform any of the myriad of camp cheers or songs. Maybe even something related to snacks and drinks such as winning a drink or "being forced" to get a snack for a certain player.

We always found that having a physical as well as mental involvement in things helped to keep them involved and focused on what is going on around them.

True non-zero games are often negotiation games. All parties have a number of goals they want to achieve, u known to each other. The game is then to explore each others positions and try to find the equilibrium.
Such games are not for kids though- they mostly still are in a win-or-lose frame of mind.

Cooperative games, where everyone cooperates against the system are indeed well suited to play with kids. Some good titles have been suggested. I recommend Werewolf as well, a game with minimal equipment and great fun, although a few players will be assigned as Werewolves, so it's more a 'group vs individual' type of game.

If you take Major B's definition of a non-zero game, then the campaign game I'm running is a non-zero game. If side A fights a battle with side B and gains eight victory points to side B's 6 then the surplus becomes the Campaign Victory points which are all that counts- so side
a gets 2 for the campaign. Side B never loses points.
So if side B and side A had four victory points each before the battle above, after it, side A would have six and side B four. The player who gets to 10 Strategic Victory Points ends the game and the person with the most points at that point (after all have had their turn). To make a person lose points you have to make a special action. This at most can deplete his VP total by one.

Dear Stryderg

I understand completely. I am looking at other things that might be suitable for your scouts. The key in your quest is that everyone has fun and enjoys cooperative play, rather than creating a "loser". Kids are not fully developed personalities and all too often they can trail off into "innocent meanness." A "winner" often means a "loser." The role of loser can all too often not be simply a temporary and thing of happenstance, but kids can be quite cruel. The stigmatization kids somewhat "innocently" can impose can lead to problems. This is unavoidable in things like competitive sports, but in the inculcation of a primary group and a band of brothers like a scout troop it can have no place, and is inimical to the spirit of scouting.

It's also not too great in war games where gamers are supposed to playing against friends, where the friendship between players is supposed to be the key element.

One person you SHOULD definitely talk to is Walt O'Hara. Walt is a great guy and he has put on for a decade now a "Wargame Camp" at a local campground. He teaches the kids about war games, but basically just lets them design their own and have fun with very simple games. Walt is very aware of how to manage these things and has been asked back every year. His events are the most popular of the whole camp.

I will get you his address if you need it, post to me privately as sigurd@eclipse.net. Walt is the expert on these things.

wins.