olicana | 27 Feb 2017 8:38 a.m. PST |
Can someone tell me what was in a British Motor Battalion support company late 1941. I have one fighting at the third escarpment, Sidi Rezegh, on the 20th November 41 (Operation Crusader) holding of 15th Kradschutzen Btn. with 'heavy machine gun fire'. It has the nomenclature "S Company, 2nd Btn Rifle Brigade" as part of 7th Armoured Division, but I can't find what it was armed with. Was the MG fire from bren / bren carriers? Did it have Vickers? Any help would be appreciated. |
Griefbringer | 27 Feb 2017 9:15 a.m. PST |
As far as I know, Motor Battalions received their support companies officially only in 1943 – before that they just had a headquarter company and ordinary motor companies. |
Rich Bliss | 27 Feb 2017 9:42 a.m. PST |
No Vickers. The heavy refers to the fire not the machine gun 😉 |
olicana | 27 Feb 2017 10:02 a.m. PST |
Hi Rich, I have, from 15th Panzer War Diary (translation in The Sidi Rezeg Battles 1941 Hagar Hamilton & Turner): "1600: Report from Regiment 200. Motor Cycle Battalion 15 not yet on escarpment at Sidi Rezegh but halted under heavy machine-gun fire from there….." Thinking about it, it can't be carriers because there was only S company and A company of 2 R.B. present. The bulk of the infantry in the area were 1 KRRC and they were on the ridge of the 2nd escarpment and their carriers were with them (they had led the attack in the morning). Is it possible that there might have been Vickers MMG as adhoc equipment? Somehow I doubt it, but heavy MG fire doesn't sound like bren fire and I can't see brens of a support Coy holding up a whole battalion. |
Rich Bliss | 27 Feb 2017 10:15 a.m. PST |
I'm not sure I'd trust the German diary. Heavy Machine Gun fire could be an euphemism for commanding officer down with a bout of dysentery or some other embarrassing reason for a delay. Is 'S' company actually a combat company? I've always been under the impression that they are actually logistics, just rushed to the line on an ad hoc basis. Although, I admit I can't point to a source on that. . |
Martin Rapier | 27 Feb 2017 10:53 a.m. PST |
According to Bellis, Motor Battalions had integral MMG platoons in the rifle comapnies in 1942, and a separate S company in 1943. As above 'heavy machinegun fire' can mean either fire from heavy machineguns, or machinegun fire which was heavy. I'd have thought a couple of dozen Brens could easily pin down a motor cycle battalion in the desert in daylight. |
olicana | 27 Feb 2017 10:57 a.m. PST |
I don't have an 'S' company as a combat company in any of my OOBs for motor rifle battalions in 41 but there it is and it was referred to as S (for support) company in the British diaries. It's what makes me wonder if it might be one of those 'desert', or specially constituted, formations not present anywhere else. If it was constituted like the headquarters / support coy in a standard infantry battalion it might include an MMG platoon. MMG platoons were attached to several headquarters coys in the desert as standard (Indian and Polish, the latter having loads but losing its sappers) so I wonder if the answer might lie there. That would give it 1 sapper platoon. 1 AA platoon. What did that include? 1 Recon platoon (bren carriers). 1 mortar platoon. and possibly 1 MMG platoon. |
olicana | 27 Feb 2017 11:02 a.m. PST |
Thanks Martin, I've not got that. |
Starfury Rider | 27 Feb 2017 11:08 a.m. PST |
As GB notes, the official organisation of a Motor Bn did not include a Support Company until mid-1943, and then that was likely confined to units at Home, while those in the Middle East before going to Italy changed over some while later. The Rifle Brigade pose an issue of their own, in that its Battalions did not letter their Companies as A, B, C etc. There may well be a detailed explanation somewhere but I've not come across it. As an example in 1944 1st Bn RB used A, B and I for its three Motor Coys, while 8th Bn went for F, G and H. As a result S Coy would not automatically be a Support Coy, which is usually the case. The official WE for a Mot Bn from 1940 laid out four identical Mot Coys, each of three Mot Pls (30 men carried by four 15-cwt trucks and one motorcycle) and one Scout Pl (with eleven carriers and two scout cars). The was no unified Support Coy, and indeed no support weapons (3-in mortars, MMGs or atk guns) as it was thought the Mot Bn would always be split up among the Armd Regts. HQ Coy was just Signals and Admin Pls. There were changes, the first being a single 3-in mortar being added to each Mot Coy from the end of 1941 (courtesy of an amendment I found via Canada!). Certainly the Bns in North Africa were making their own modifications as well. The switch to four Mot Coys each organised as a Mot Pl, Scout Pl, Atk Pl amd MMG Pl, with a 3-in Mortar Det at Coy HQ, was seemingly trialled from early 1942 before being codified in the August 1942 (which incidentally is perhaps the worst WE to unravel as I'm certain whoever totted up the support weapons didn't count them correctly – 26 LMGs for a whole Bn?). Given the realities of desert warfare I won't say there was no chance that 2RB would have MMGs to hand in Nov41, though it would be unusual. Likewise S Coy wouldn't definitely be a support weapons subunit, Support Coy only arrived in standard British Inf Bns from spring of 1943. Mot Bns in North Africa on Middle East WEs never had a Support Coy either, but did move to an Atk Coy and three Mot Coys (each one Scout, two Mot and one MMG Pls, with a 3-in det a Coy HQ). Gary |
Griefbringer | 27 Feb 2017 11:27 a.m. PST |
Thinking about it, it can't be carriers because there was only S company and A company of 2 R.B. present. Keep in mind that the ordinary Motor Companies also had their own carrier platoon. Combined with the Motor Platoons, this gives a company quite a lot of Brens by the official TOE. |
wrgmr1 | 27 Feb 2017 11:37 a.m. PST |
According to Ian Shaw's WWII Army Organizations and Equipment 3rd edition published in 1986 the Motor battlion is listed as having a support company? 1939 to June 1941 2 x 3" mortars 4 x 25mm Hotchkiss ATG upgraded to 2 Pdrs in the western desert 4 x Eng Grps, (Squads?) 5 15cwt trucks To motorize add another 5 15cwt trucks. I'm not sure how accurate these lists are, but thought I'd post it anyway. |
kustenjaeger | 27 Feb 2017 12:02 p.m. PST |
Greetings I think the Shaw lists are inconsistent with War Establishments and issue of equipment. It is possible there was a formation equipped like this somewhere at some point but no idea which or when. As for 2 RB a bit of trawling indicates that 2 RB had A, B, C and S and an HQ company. There is an indication that for Crusader the scout platoons may have been grouped with or as S company. By late 1942 S was the AT gun company but in Brevity in mid 1941 seems to have been a normal motor company. The 7 Support Group OB for 17 November 1941 identifies 4 companies of 2 RB spread between columns, only A and B being identified by letter. The implication is that none of these is a support company. Regards Edward |
olicana | 27 Feb 2017 12:05 p.m. PST |
Thanks Gary, that's good stuff. Thinking about it, it can't be carriers because there was only S company and A company of 2 R.B. present. Correction. A Coy was attached 7th Armoured Brigade Group. The rest of 2 RB was with 7th Support Group. Both formations were on the escarpments at Sidi rezegh but I can't find a reference to where the rest of 2 RB was deployed. So now I'm more confused than ever – where was the rest of 2 RB. Still, the whole allows for some scenario 'artistic license'. |
olicana | 27 Feb 2017 12:13 p.m. PST |
Edward, excellent, so 'S' could stand for 'scout'. That would make sense as, 15th Kradschutzen, in the same diary entry, was asking for armoured support. It would also explain the heavy MG fire. |
ColCampbell | 27 Feb 2017 12:43 p.m. PST |
I don't know how accurate they are or what the sources are, but GHQ has a list of various tables of organization and equipment ( link ). One of them is for the British motor rifle battalion from mid 1941 to mid 1942. In it, each company has a motor support platoon of one 3" mortar squad and two medium machinegun squads. If the 2RB (minus A Company) was all together in the fight against 15th Kradschuetzen Battalion, then six squads of medium machineguns (Vickers) could put down a lot of fire. Anyway, my nickel's worth to the discussion. Jim |
ColCampbell | 27 Feb 2017 12:50 p.m. PST |
And see also the discussion on the Axis History forum about the organization of the British motor infantry battalion link specifically this post from 04 July 2012: The Sidi Rezegh Battles 1941 (the South African Official History) (pages 180 and 185) notes as early as November 1941 that 2nd Bn The Rifle Brigade had a Support Company which took part in the fight at Sidi Rezegh on Nov 21st, but does not mention any details about it having machine-gun and 2-pdr platoons. This suggests the battalion may have adopted the 3 rifle coys and one support coy much earlier than early to mid 1942-perhaps as a local and unique exception to establishment? And has anyone recently seen evidence that the other four motor battalions of 30th Corps in Operation Crusader were still on the earlier WE? and follow-on postings. Jim P.S. All of this is interesting as a friend and I are organizing 1:285 scale DAK vs 8th Army forces. Our time period is mid-late 1941/early 1942. We're doing one stand/one vehicle = one platoon. |
olicana | 27 Feb 2017 1:27 p.m. PST |
Hi Jim, thanks for that link, I'm glad I'm not the only one struggling with Agar-Hamilton and Turner. As you know, I'm with you on that scale of action and I've just painting finished 15th Panzer Div. TMP link |
ColCampbell | 27 Feb 2017 1:35 p.m. PST |
James, Yes, I saw your masterpieces earlier today. I also ran across this OB chart for March/April 1941 Operation Sonnenblume. PDF link It includes the 1st Tower Hamlet Rifles. While much earlier than the Crusader operation organization for which you are searching, it does show the evolution of motor infantry organization in the Western Desert. It is charted for "Battlefront WW2" rules which are a squad-level set of rules by the same group that produced the ACW Regimental Fire and Fury rules. Jim |
olicana | 27 Feb 2017 1:50 p.m. PST |
Thanks, Jim. It's a pity they didn't keep the MMG and AT. |
kustenjaeger | 27 Feb 2017 8:29 p.m. PST |
Greetings No idea what the source for the fire and fury toe is as the war diary appears to show 4 motor companies ( A-D ) in February – they all seem to have scout platoons and to have practiced with 2" mortars before moving forward. The Australian history of the engagement at Mersa Brega ( link ) refers to the only close AT defence being from 3 RHA's J Battery's 2 pdr QF AT guns that arrived on 29 March. 1/ Tower Hamlets had previously been reinforced by Y company 1/R Northumberland Fusiliers MMGs ( one platoon per forward company ( A-C as D was about a mile behind ) . Edward |
Starfury Rider | 28 Feb 2017 4:38 a.m. PST |
I won't pretend to be familiar with the wargame T/O linked to above, but would agree with Edward/KJ as it feels wrong; looks more reflective of later formats than so early into 1941. That's me sticking my oar in on the linked discussion on AHF as well, as the S/Support/'scout' Company queries obviously caught my eye. A quick search for S Company of the Rifle Brigade doesn't turn up too much on the net, though it was the Atk Coy at Snipe, much later in the desert war. Gary |
Martin Rapier | 28 Feb 2017 6:37 a.m. PST |
I would take any Wargames Army lists with a strong pinch of salt, especially the older ones. Even Frank Chadwick seems to struggle with the concept of a Carrier Platoon, as did Arty Conliffe. |
Griefbringer | 01 Mar 2017 1:02 a.m. PST |
According to Ian Shaw's WWII Army Organizations and Equipment 3rd edition published in 1986 the Motor battlion is listed as having a support company?1939 to June 1941 2 x 3" mortars 4 x 25mm Hotchkiss ATG upgraded to 2 Pdrs in the western desert 4 x Eng Grps, (Squads?) 5 15cwt trucks To motorize add another 5 15cwt trucks. I'm not sure how accurate these lists are, but thought I'd post it anyway. Sounds more like something resembling (motorised) infantry battalion – motor battalions had full integral transport assets on their own. Also (Royal) engineers were divisional assets in British organisations – though infantry battalions had a small pioneer platoon of their own. |