Tom Scott | 25 Feb 2017 10:40 a.m. PST |
I have read the past six months comments on rules systems for low-level tactical WW2 games. I am afraid that I feel no closer to determining the best choice, so I am asking for input. My objectives (which, I confess, might be somewhat conflicting): 1)Games with (per side) 12-24 individual infantry and one or two individual vehicles. I assume this is what is meant by "platoon" scale. 2) Differentiation between weapons and nationalities. I would like to see "some" difference between an MG42 and a Vickers, between a Sten and a Thompson. I would like to see a difference between Luftwaffe Field Division personnel and the US 1st Infantry Division. Of course between a Tiger and a T-34. Would like to see coverage of all theatres of the war. 3) Two hour play time. Relatively simple/straightforward (although not necessarily traditional) rules. No more than two die rolls to determine the results of an attack, and no need for advanced physics. I realize that #2 and #3 are in conflict, but is there a good balance somewhere? 4) I apologize in advance to the "realist" school of wargaming. I prefer the "fun" school, and would be quite happy with the Hollywood movie version of WW2. Indeed, between the two, much prefer it. I am even tempted by the roll-playing concept. Are there rules that functionally game along those lines? 5) The names that seem to pop up: "Nuts!" and "Chain of Command" seem most mentioned, then "5Core" and "Battleground". What about "Combat Patrol", "Skirmish Action", or "Disposable Heroes II? Do any of these have any storybuilding or roleplaying aspects? I imagine my games built around scenarios rather than head-to-head one-off battles. Thanks for any insights you might be able to give me. Grognard gamer. WW2 tactical miniatures newbie. |
Extra Crispy | 25 Feb 2017 11:11 a.m. PST |
First off, there really is no such thing as "best choice." Rules are like ice cream: sometimes you want chocolate, sometimes you want pistachio. One may be your favorite but you probably like more than one flavor of ice cream no? That said….. Nuts! is *exactly* what you are describing. Differences in troop types are mostly differences in kit. After all, at this level there's very little difference between 10 US grunts, 10 Luftwaffe infantry, or 10 French resistance fighters. When you give stats to each man, that's the difference in training, etc. and of course equipment – resistance fighters have lots of SMGs and pistols, but no mortars, radios or HMGs. Nuts also has an RPG lite component whereby you can run linked battles as a mini campaign. As for weapon differences, each has their own stats. But again, one HMG gets a one more die or one less. Vehicles are completely different, but small arms are more grouped (all bolt action rifles are the same). Again, in a skirmish, what is the real world difference between two pistols? Nuts has a great activation/reaction system and you can try their "lite" rules for free! 5Core does not differentiate troops and weapons near as much. Chain of Command has a very interesting hidden movement/deployment system, and hits on most of your wants but in my few games it ran more 3-4 hours. Don't know much about Combat Patrol but here's a summary: link Never heard of "Skirmish Action" before? |
WLBartlett | 25 Feb 2017 11:23 a.m. PST |
Well here are my thoughts for what they're worth. Nuts will do just about all of it except the differentiating of weapon types. An SMG is an SMG. It can be played solo, cooperatively or head to head as well. Lots of diversity and has role playing elements as well. Great fun to play, but the charts can be a little intimidating at first. Superb support for the base game and the many supplements available. Skirmish Action will do all but the role playing aspect. Differences in weapons are there, few rolls to resolve combats and works superbly with historical scenarios. Easy to pick up and a great set of rules. Disposable Heroes is great fun as well. It covers most all aspects you're looking for except role playing. It does head to head and historical scenarios very well. I don't know the differences between 1st and 2nd edition so can't speak to that. My solo play is done with Nuts and I really like the game. Head to head and historical scenarios I am using Skirmish Action, again I really like the rules. If I'm playing my wife, I use Disposable Heroes. DH got me into skirmish games and I now prefer skirmish games to massed battles. Hope this helps. regards, Bill |
Bill McHarg | 25 Feb 2017 11:39 a.m. PST |
My experience with Nuts! is that you either love it or hate it. I would definitely try their free "lite" rules before you commit to it. It has a different feel from any other game I have played. I am still on the fence about it. I have played the WWII skirmish game with someone who is experienced with the rules, and it went fine. We also played it just with tanks which was pretty fun. I played the science fiction version a few years ago, and we just couldn't seem to get it to make sense. I recently Nuts! Big Battles. We had questions, and the only answer Mr. Texiera had to my questions was to say "think about real life". It was less than satisfactory and we are looking at other options for that scale of game. You might look at Chain of Command. It has that same scale and lots of people seem to like it. I plan to play it, but we already play 3 different WWII skirmish games and I don't want to get too bogged down in that. Arc of Fire certainly has the differentiation between weapons, but its pretty crunchy. It is not really a simple game system and has no role playing involved. It also will take a bit longer than 2 hours, although our games usually are done in 3 hours. |
Weasel | 25 Feb 2017 12:19 p.m. PST |
If you have questions about 5core I'll be happy to answer. We specifically don't cover national characteristics but I think we do the RPG and character driven campaign aspects with more detail than a lot of other games out there. It's aimed at "War movie realism". I played Nuts for years and while we finally moved on, it's a damn fine game. Very satisfying. With the number of figures you mention, you also start to sneak into the platoon level games like Troops, weapons and tactics or Chain of Command. |
JLA105 | 25 Feb 2017 1:39 p.m. PST |
I haven't tried 'Nuts!' yet, but have Chain-of-Command. It has become the 'goto' WWII ruleset for our small gaming group. There is a difference between weapons (I almost always hold my breath when 'shot at' by an MG42). Nationalities have different tactical strengths & weaknesses (the authors based these on period training manuals, and having purchased and read a book summarizing the differences between US, British and German training I can attest that they did a good job) The level of 'realism ' is pretty good – you quickly discover that if you rely on WH40k-ish tactics of 'line 'em up and run at the enemy' you will quickly lose. The complexity is rather easy, just a few concepts to wrap your head around. However, I've never played a game that lasted less than 3 hours, with 4-5 being about average for us. |
Ed the Two Hour Wargames guy | 25 Feb 2017 2:02 p.m. PST |
My experience with Nuts! is that you either love it or hate it. I would definitely try their free "lite" rules before you commit to it. It has a different feel from any other game I have played. Great advice. Here's the link. link We had questions, and the only answer Mr. Texiera had to my questions was to say "think about real life". Sorry if that's what you took from the answers as I usually explain the mechanics and how they relate to real life situations. As in when someone asked if 2 of the 3 stands in a platoon are in cover, does the whole platoon count as being in cover. I told them no as the one stand is still in the open "think how it would be in real life". As for the original poster, I'm sure you'll find something you'll like, there's lots of rules out there. |
Weasel | 25 Feb 2017 2:13 p.m. PST |
I should add, Nuts is one of the few games where you can play individual members of a tank crew. That's pretty cool. :) |
Extra Crispy | 25 Feb 2017 2:20 p.m. PST |
Right until the point you're a tank commander and your driver gets killed #TrueStory |
Pizzagrenadier | 25 Feb 2017 7:00 p.m. PST |
Disposable Heroes 2 isn't out yet, bit of you'd like to see how it plays I wrote a series of boot camp type posts on the Kickstarter for it. link link link link Hopefully that will answer your questions! The book is due out imminently. I believe it is back from the printers and is being sent out to the backers soon with general release to follow. Keith |
daler240D | 26 Feb 2017 9:13 a.m. PST |
I actually play a combination of 5 Core and Nuts!. I zoom up a little bit on the level of detail from the individuals in a squad or tank to the actual squad or tank or gun crew. Chain of command is great, but too many NCOs and Officers running around for my taste. |
Pan Marek | 26 Feb 2017 10:08 a.m. PST |
Advice is good. Reading the rules is better. But in the end (and I admit its time consuming and potentially expensive) playing a rule set is best for determining whether you like them or not. |
Weasel | 26 Feb 2017 10:49 a.m. PST |
Daler – Fancy sharing a few details on how you mixed the two? |
Tom Scott | 26 Feb 2017 5:53 p.m. PST |
Appreciate all the comments. Good info. It is precisely because of the difficulty/cost of buying all the rulebooks that I am asking. If rulebooks cost $10 USD, then fine. But now that they run $30 USD+ with shipping, it becomes a bit of a stretch. |
Lee494 | 26 Feb 2017 8:52 p.m. PST |
Tom, full disclosure this is Lee author of Skirnish Action rules and I'd like to try and objectively answer your questions by the numbers. 1. Skirmish Action plays well with 12-24 figures and one or two AFVs. You can use more figures and vehicles but game will take longer. 2. Different weapons have different stars. The Thompson is different than the MP40 or tge STEN. Vickers is different than MG34 which is different than an MG42. Troop types are different as well with about 10 different "types" per country. For example US has Bulge Cooks & Bakers, Veteran Infantry, Marines, Sea Bees, Paratroopers and even Rangers and FSSF, plus 6 other types all with different stats. 3. Games with 12-24 figures and an AFV last about 90 minutes. For Combat Resolution the Firer and Defender each roll ONE d6. That's it. No additional rolls or saves or multi sided dice are needed. 4. My favorite comment at Fall In was that the rules "play just like the movies". I started out running two games with eight slots for players and ended up (with the great help of HMGS staff) running four games with over forty players. You're not alone liking the Hollywood approach. 5. SA does not have role playing built in, although they are flexible enough. In fact I will be running Save Private Ryan based on the movie with them at Cold Wars. You are more than welcome to play! Hope that helps! Cheers! Lee |
Weasel | 26 Feb 2017 9:01 p.m. PST |
I'll grab a copy when we get paid next, just because of "Bulge cooks and bakers" |
WLBartlett | 27 Feb 2017 7:12 a.m. PST |
I like to think that as a friend of Lee's and a former Seabee I had a hand in Lee including them in the rules. However, I do think he has them rate a bit better than they deserve. But I wont quibble, it does my ego a bit of good… |
Lee494 | 27 Feb 2017 4:28 p.m. PST |
Re SeaBees. So Bill you just had to go there lol … the trick is you were in the "regular" SeaBees. The reason I rated the ones in the SA rules higher was because they are John Wayne's SeaBees. :-)). "Serious" Lee (bad pun intended) the ratings do reflect my research and obviously views on various units. I happen to think SeaBees are often underrated. And I also think that the FSSF was the best SF unit in WWII. I'm sure many can and will disagree. But that's the fun of gaming! Cheers! |
Lee494 | 27 Feb 2017 4:37 p.m. PST |
Re FSSF aka Devils Brigade just had to add that most people don't realize what a hero aka Badass their CO Robert T Frederick was. Among other decorations were 2 DSC, Silver Star, Bronze Star and no less than EIGHT Purple Hearts. Didn't know you could collect that many and still be alive. Cheers! |