"M113 with TOW" Topic

Hi,

Just wanted some information on this vehicle as I have a model of this and I am writing some rules up for it. I believe the correct designation is M150 and it is armed with a single TOW launcher and 50 cal M2. Does anyone know how many missiles it actually carried? Was it still capable of carrying troops or was it a dedicated AT platform?

Cheers

If your referring to the TOW carrier, not the one with the Hammerhead launcher, it was just designated as M113 Tow Carrier (the later was the M901) and had a load of 10 missiles. It was not capable of carrying troops, but of course in an emergency you could cram about a half-dozen inside and as many as could hold on on the deck.

That sounds about right. Barely room for the crew of 4 (TC, Driver and 2 TOW crew) and their gear. Most of the rear was taken up by a platform the was raised for firing. External storage was consumed by the TOW Cap, a upside down U shaped ballistic "tent"

Like this:

We discussed this on another thread. I think this should answer all your questions. Plus what has been posted here already …

22 Jan 2017 12:44 p.m. PST

how many tow rounds did the m150 carry

majed4385 24 Jan 2017 2:28 p.m. PST

I found this that says there was stowage for 10 missiles:

This variant consisted of an M113A1 APC with an M233 TOW mounting kit installed. The kit provided for stowage of a TOW launcher, 10 missiles, and the four-man TOW crew inside the vehicle. A ground tripod was also carried to allow dismounted operation of the TOW launcher.

The M233 kit consisted of a pedestal unit mounted on double vertical rails which were pivoted at the vehicle floor under the troop compartment roof hatch. The pedestal unit was raised on the rails and the launch tube was attached and loaded for firing. The vehicle was capable of limited cross country travel while the launcher was in the raised position.

Initial production tests were completed in July 1970, and the mounting kit was reclassified from "Limited Production" (XM-233E1) to "Standard A" (M233) on August 20, 1971.

Legion 4 24 Jan 2017 2:43 p.m. PST

Yes, it seemed it was a "stop-gap" design to get TOWs mounted on an armored and reliable chassis, the M113. The TOW and gunner were exposed. IIRC. When in firing mode. And there was a "ballistic" cover the gunner could employ. However, they were being phased out or gone when I went on active duty in '79, AFAIK. And very glad to have the M901 ITV in my Mech Co. in '87-'89.

TMP link

That ballistic cover is new to me.

Knowing squaddies it got hooked on every tree or passing building, dented, ripped, and rarely used

Thanks guys for your help, much appreciated.

Intriguing that Janes Armour and Artillery 1983-84 makes no mention of the designation M150.

It refers to the M901 coming into service in 1979, and there is a photo labelled 'Israeli M113 with TOW'. The Equipment in Service lists to the rear refer only to 'M113A2 TOW TD'

And it took @ 30 minutes to set up or take down.

Yes- I always thought it was called the M150- but on reflection that thought was probably based on seeing it in a 1980 Heroics and Ros listing. I must confess I've never checked it since!

Can anyone confirm, is there actually a designation M150, or is it a self propagating designation that legitimises itself by existing on the internet?

I remember them as M150s because thats whet the Skytrex catalogue listed them as :)

…that's what I am just wondering…

Just checked Janes 1995. Under procurement history it lists M113A2 TOW. No M150 is mentioned anywhere that I can find.

As I said, the M150 it seemed it was a "stop-gap" design to get TOWs mounted on an armored and reliable chassis, the M113. So it probably was not around very long. And the ballistic cover for the gunner looks like an accident waiting to happen. And probably was of little effectiveness. Maybe just made the gunner "feel" protected. But it looks like it could give a modicum of protection from rain, snow, bird droppings, etc. …

But yes, In '79 I remember the M901 … being in the inventory.

AFAIK, the M150 designation never was adopted.

I've only seen them listed as M150s.

I think they're even listed as that in some of the military manuals, and official TO&Es, but I could be mistaken.

Never seen a pic with the "ballistic cover". Suspect that is a good way to get US taxpayers to pay big bucks for a glorified, overly expensive tarp.

M-150?

Yes that's what they were designated when I was on the. Then we got the M-901 a few months later.

If I remember correctly they carried around 10 TOW missiles. There was rack system on the right side hull wall just like on the M-901.

The ballistic covers were pretty strong as they were made from an early version of Kevlar. It was mainly there to protect you from Artillery Fragments.We called them "Conestoga's" like a Conestoga Wagon.

That is good to know, the cover just does not look that strong. But [hopefully] it would stop some schrapnel, fragmentations, etc.. And of course it is better than not having it.

Like the M113 had no turret around the TC's hatch/.50 cal. And even in early engagements in SE Asia. That exposed position took a number of casualties. Or the HMMWV, somebody finally thought it might be a good idea to put the exposed .50 on top in a turret.

Another query. Were they ever issued with the "improved" TOW missile with the extra stand-off probe or even the TOW 2 missile?

The Ballistic Covers were great in bad weather Snow, Rain, Wind. You just parked the vehicle so it flank was blacking all of the Snow, Rain, Wind.

When the M-901 got fielded the Ballistic Covers were turned in with the M-150's. We never saw them after that.

Yes, I thought the same as I said … could keep you dry in during inclement weather, etc.

Were they ever issued with the "improved" TOW missile with the extra stand-off probe or even the TOW 2 missile?

AFAIK … the M150 was gone by the time the I-TOW & TOW 2 were issued …

This link states the I-TOW was issued in '78. But as I said, I never saw an M-150 when I went on Active Duty in '79. Only ever saw the M901s. Which were a far superior AFV. With the "Hammer-Head" Launcher.

Page 96 of "Armies of NATO's Central Front" by Isby & Kamps has a photo of a M113 firing a TOW missile on the pedistal mount in the rear hatch the with the following description
"A TOW is fired from a Canadian M150 launcher vehicle.The missle system cannot be used with the gunner under armour.(Canadian Ministry of Defence)"

This site refers to the M150 in Canadian and Israeli service and being the predeceser to the M901
link

Glad they were gone by the time I went in the Army !

The US M113 With TOW was the M150. Although the M901 went into service in 1979 the unit I was assigned to in Europe, didn't get the M901 until I was getting ready to PCS in late 1981. Our sister Battalion got the M901 in early 1980.

Yes, all 3 Mech Bns I served in '84-'90 had M901s. Never saw an M150. The 901 is a much better vehicle.

Before that in the 101 '80-'83. We had TOWs mounted on M151s. And currently the TOWs are on HMMWVs … of course …

My Scout section had two M113 and Two m190 though we were short in the USA so had to sub M113 for training. Our M901s were in the pre- positioned depot in Germany. When I became the XO in an Armor Battaion, 3/10, we had an entire company of M901s. A very deadly company but often assigned in platoons to the other tank companies. Anyway in the Cavalry our scout tracks had a crew of three, a driver, TC-gunner and a loader. I am not sure but in some units they had a crew of four.

Sounds reasonable for the scout tracks, since I thought I'd read each carried two dismounts, so 4 would be a good number for that, so you've still got a driver and a gunner on the vehicle, to provide fire support, if needed.

One more comment the scout tracks without TOWs carried several Dragon AT launchers as well as a couple of LAWs. Our TOWS could be ground mounted depending on the terrain such as covering a river crossing in dense woods. In these cases, the infantry squad would also be deployed with it.

That is true. And we did the same, as if we were to have to stem the flood of WP Armor. We'd need all the AT we could get …

As above by "RudyNelson" If at full strength a Inf or Ar Bn. Scout Plt. was supposed to have:

3 x M-113 (5 man Crew)
1 x 50 Cal, 1 x M-60 MG, 8 M-47 Dragon Missiles (strapped to the right side hull wall) 10 x M-72A2 LAW (strapped to the left side hull wall under the radio mount.
Plus Demolish-en Gear (40 pd Cratering Charges, C-4, Det-Cord, Time Fuse, etc.) 1 x Chain Saw.

3 x M-901 (5 man Crew)
12 TOW missiles each, 2 missiles in the launcher and 10 in the racks on the right hull wall.
1 x M-60 MG

The main purpose "by the book" for the two troop in the back of the M-901 were they were the loaders for reloading the TOW missiles, Everyone in the Plt was trained to load and unload the TOW's to include the M-113 crews) so anyone could do the job but we normal had a two man LP/OP team off the veh. at all times as well as from the M-113's.

Total of 30 Personnel in a Scout Plt like this. Five per vehicle.
1 LT
1 SFC
4 SSG
6 SGT
18 Sp-4 – Pvt

Just for context, a Mech Bn Sct Plt's AFVs about the mid-'80s was :

3 – M901s with M60D, 7.62 NATO MGs [they had the "butterfly" trigger like the M2]
3 – M113s mounted M2 .50 cals [as usual]

Our's in the Scout Plt, 2/13th, Inf 8th ID 80-82.
Scout Plt, 1/18th, Inf 1st ID 82-83.
and Scout Plt,2/16th, 88-89.
were all the standered M-60 MG model not the D model.

Hmmm ? That is interesting … who knows why ?

"?"
I don't know.
Maybe they did not need to change over to the D model M-60 MG.
The only place I ever saw or used a M-60D model was in the Blues Plt. 3/4 Cav 25th ID from 84-885 and those were the ones mounted on our four UH-1's (2 per bird) In the Blues Plt we still carried the stander modal M-60.

AFAIK, our M901s were the only vehicle in the Bde [197 Mech '86-'90] that used the M60D … But yes, who knows ?

And the Bde HQ had a couple of M113A3s with the extended fuel tank mounted on the rear. On both sides of the ramp. link Again only ones in the Bde that had them.

The Bde was part of the 18th ABN Corps. So don't know if that had anything to do with it either ? Probably not …

Yea, I think the "extended fuel tank mounted on the rear" External fuel tanks started on the A2 model M-113 family. And the removed the internal on the left rear wall inside. I remember our 1st Sgt's and our Medic and Maintenance M-113 A2 had them and no fuel tank inside like on the earlier A1 models and it left more room for storage inside.

Even if diesel burns slow and is hard st art on fire I and a lot of others never liked the idea of that fuel tank sitting in your left rear coroner.

Things did not improve with the M-2 or M-3 Bradly with a fuel tank under the turret!

That looks "familiar" … But yeah, we were basically surrounded by diesel …

I heard an M113 from 5ID during the Panama Invasion had a fuel leak in the troop compartment[from enemy fire ?]. They abandoned it temporarily … No one wants to risk running around in a combat zone with a diesel soaked BDU.

Or how about the hydraulic fluid "cherry juice" from the hydraulic lines on the M-901. Had those go on me once at Ft Riley Ks in mid winter. I was covered in the hot stuff and it never washed out of my BDU's.

Yeah and that "cherry juice" if flammable too, IIRC …

Yea that's what I was remembering as the line burst over my head, sitting in that M.S. turret system that it had.
Good times. And then the vehicle was headlined till the mechanics got it repaired.

God what a P.O.S. those M-901 were.

Well at least for us scouts they were garbage.

They may have been ok for the A.T. Plt. but could not keep up with the M-113's Way to slow for the job.

Yea they had the eyes to see out there with the thermals and all but just not a good vehicle for Recon Missions.

The M-3 was not much better. It's taller than an M-1 make so much noise and the smoke from the engine makes you of a locomotive going over the Rocky's. Not a good Recon platform.

@11th ACR: The standard Troop Carrier M113A2 still had the internal fuel tank back in the left rear corner. The A3 had external fuel tanks. Many mini makers place the fuel tanks externally, but this is so you can tell the difference.

The main differences between the A1 and A2 were in the engine compartment.

Yeah 11th ACR … no one wants to be a human torch. Or even take the risk beyond what you already have when riding around in AFVs, etc. …

lincoln … that sounds about right to me … my Mech Co had M113A1s, IIRC …

You are correct "lincolnlog" to many years off of them.

Last time I was on a M-113 or M-901 was 84. After that nothing but UH-1's Gun Jeeps TOW, Jeeps, Gun Humvee's (m-60 MG), TOW Humvee's, M-3 Bradly's and (M-2 Bradly's for Desert Storm) and M-551 Sheridan's at NTC.

The M-113's we had in 90-93 (11th ACR) in Germany I think were all A3's as they could keep up with the M-1's and M-3's
They were the 1st Sgt's, Maintenance and Medic tracks.

Also the A3 had a Yoke for steering like the M-1 and M-2 / M-3 unlike the earlier laterals steering system on the M-113 A1 and A2.

I was in earlier than you. All ours were laterals in both the M113 and the 571. How did the yoke system drive?

Not bad (only drove one with the Bradly's as a SSG). it's like a searing wheel.
Yea, I grew up with the laterals as well.

On a M-113 A1 or A2

On a M-113A3.

On a M-2 or M-3 Bradly.

On a M-1

I was on M113A1 in Germany 79 to 81 the fan tower was dead center of the engine compartment accessed from the top rear hatch at the TC station. You had to use a flashlight to check the oil level and verify it wasn't contaminated. Contaminated oil in the fan towers was a huge problem in the A1's. Also, the quill shaft broke in the A1 if you didn't idle the engine down before pulling the engine stop.

Had A2 in CA-ARNG and fan tower was repositioned to the right side of the engine compartment which evidently cured the oil contamination issue.

Shoot, I'm having PMCS flashbacks, where's my -10 and form 2404?

By the way, some guard units had M150's up until at least 86. It wouldn't surprise me if 4th ID had M150s until 84-85, they were a fairly low priority modernization unit in the 80's. After the forward Brigade in Germany was sent home, the re-capstoned to Korea. Most of the capstone Korea division were low priority for new equipment.

I know … In the ROK, we still had M113A1s in '84-'85. But at least they had the ACAV Turret. Ours' at Benning with the 197th Mech didn't … sadly … And we were part of the 18th ABN Corps.

The Norks didn't have all the AFVs as the WP. But we did have M901s fortunately !