"MEASUREMENT: IMPERIAL A NON-STARTER IN METRIC AREAS?" Topic

Some rules are written with all measurements in imperial units, others only in metric, and yet others in a combination of units.

For example, Warhammer is in inches only all over the world.FoW is in inches and metric but that gets a little messy in charts. DBA has switched to "base widths".

Here in the U.S., while we have ready access to tapes and rulers with both inches and cm, there seems to be "less comfort" with metric. People think in inches and have a harder time visualizing cm when, for example, planning moves.

Question for our friends in metric countries: when wargaming, are you comfortable with inches?

Do you have ready access to rulers and tapes marked in inches?

Is a game using only imperial units a non-starter for you?

I ask because while researching the topic recently, I discovered a range of opions and comments. Most concerning was the comment by a fellow in central Europe who wrote that his community doesn't have easy access to imperial measurement devices.

Thanks in advance!

Sorry for xpost to France alone. Wanted to include some other metric nations, but a bug prevented xpost. :-(

I grew up with imperial but I have lived in Europe for about twenty years, so I am fine with either one.

But for me metric is more handy when working with smaller units of measure. It is easier to deal with x mm than fractions of an inch.

Imperial wouldn´t be a deal killer for me, but I prefer metric. One of my favorite rulesets is Black Powder, which is in imperial. I went through it and converted everything into metric, as I have done with a couple of other sets I felt worthwhile.

As for measuring devices, here in the Beautiful Czech Republic I didn´t see anything with inches until a friend gave me a dual tape measure from Ikea about a year ago.

Canada adopted the metric system in 1976. 40 years later, I have to review plans from engineers and surveyors in imperial, metric or a combination of both (and it's a pain in the keister to cross reference plans when they use different systems).

As wargamers, I think we mostly comfortable with our 15 mm or 28 mm figures mounted on 40 mm bases being given a 4" or 6" movement rate. All my tape measures have both inches and cm (the ones I use for gaming that is; at work I need to keep a collection of measuring devices for all the different possibilities that could cross my desk).

I've lived in a metric country all my life yet refuse to use it for wargaming (strangley all my scratch building and basing is in metric), it just feels odd when gaming and I've even converted a few rule sets to a nominal MU (Movement Unit) instead of using a metric tape. Imperial and MUs just feel right when gaming for me.

As mentioned above, we've had both here in Canada for a long time. Personally, I find the size of an "inch" a better unit of measurement for wargaming. I don't know why.

Doesn't matter.
After so many years of wargaming, both cm and inches work perfectly fine.

And one of the useful side-effects is that you can very quickly multiply by 2.5, and that you know inch-cm conversions by heart for the most common wargaming measurements.

Zargon, you hit the nail on the head as to the reason for my question.

We write our rules with metric and imperial in mind. So one "bound" is 4" or 10cm. You can even change the length of a bound based on the size of your figures/terrain collection. So all game data and charts are just on bounds. A half bound is 2" or 5cm. Easy peasy.

But I can also see an argument being made to just do everything in, say, inches, so that instead of doing a mental conversion (4 bounds is 16" or 40cm) or making a custom measurement stick, you just use the real-world unit (inches perhaps).

To sound like an economist, OTOH, "measurement units" or "bounds" or "base widths" or other flexible measurement units also allow a game to played on a grid with little conversion needed.

Eagerly awaiting everyone's thoughts on the matter!

"As for measuring devices, here in the Beautiful Czech Republic I didn´t see anything with inches until a friend gave me a dual tape measure from Ikea about a year ago."

Jack, that was the sort of comment that I found so surprising, I suppose due to my own ignorance and lack of travel in Eastern Europe.

That sort of comment which I've seen in other online forums got me to thinking about games such as WHFB and 40K being played in metric-only countries.

Is it a P.I.T.A. to find imperial devices to play those games?

Here in Australia, it is relatively easy to find tape measures in imperial and metric.

That being said, my local group games in metric. It was really, really confusing when a gamer moved here from another city, and he played in imperial.

I strongly suggest that you follow FOW, and provide measurements in metric and imperial.

In the UK and I prefer imperial for wargames rules. ( I have converted to celsius for the temperature but prefer imperial for everything else if I am honest).

Besides most of the best rules are written in the US these days (bar the legend Phil Barker)

Nick, does your group convert games such as 40K to metric on the fly?

I don't see what it matters. I 'think' in millimeters as long as there's less than a hundred of them. If you ask me to demonstrate to you approximately how long fifteen centimeters is, I convert to millimeters and think in terms of how many cav bases that is. Really.

But am generally happy to use whatever the rules states, unless it "feels" otherwise. For instance, I can think of a ruleset that uses percentile dice, but everything is in 5% increments…so why not just use d20?

It's not a matter of what I'm "comfortable" with. I'm not at all comfortable working in centimeters, but got along fine using them back when Epic 40k / Space Marine came out.

Hell, if you can't find an imperial ruler, just make your own. The inches don't even have to be real inches, they just all need to be the same length. Just don't loan your homemade range stick to NASA.

"The inches don't even have to be real inches, they just all need to be the same length. Just don't loan your homemade range stick to NASA."

There's actually a tape measure orbiting the earth. In NASA's early days they needed an antennae for an experimental satellite. A tape measure happened to fit the bill. The cut it to size, attached it, and launched it into orbit! :-)

Back in my early years here imperial tape measures had to be ordered from abroad, but nowadays we are almost a modern country. You can even get corn tortillas, which is a miracle in itself.

Corn tortillas in Czechia?!! That's amazing. Maybe we Austinites looking to relocate for retirement have been overlooking a notable destination?

You will re-think that when you see how much they charge for them! And we are still without grits. What world, what a world.
But beer is the cheapest thing on the menu and the women are beautiful, so it almost balances out. Still miss those grits though!

I can use either for measuring and – for wargames rules (as it's all 'made up') – it really doesn't matter to me.

Other measurements: Celsius yes (Fahrenheit makes no sense at all); big distances, I can switch between miles and kilometres without issues. Small measurements I have to do metric: I just can't handle measuring things in 7/64ths (or whatever) of an inch.

John T

UK resident, I switch comfortably between Imperial ( 28 and 20 mm games mainly, such as Black Powder and Battlegroup) and metric (15mm and 10mm games of the above rules). Tend to base figures on metric bases and play several rule sets which use Base Widths, such as Twilight of the Sunking, Impetus etc. Played a game recently where we used "handspans" to measure command distance for officers. What's the problem? (although I suppose the last one might be for the current incumbent of the White House, not that I ever want to see him playing any sort of wargame)

@ First Brigade- pretty good rules coming out of Italy (impetus, Baroque), France (L'Art de la Guerre), not to mention UK with Black Powder family, all of the Two Fat Lardies efforts and Dan Mersey's rules. To be honest, the only US written rules I play are Fire and Fury and Fields of Honour, both vintage efforts from the 1990s.

To answer Visceral Impact Studios, we play historicals, so haven't had to convert 40K measurements. But if we did we would do what we have done for other systems -- create measurement sticks and mark off things such as short range, long range, etc.

Metric wargamers are pretty adept at converting inches to 25mm increments.

I submit there is actually a "Continental foot" now, which is 30 cm, and a "Continental inch" that is 25mm.

I think the Congo movement sticks that come with the rules are in Continental feet & inches, not imperial.

If anything, the barrier is the other way. When Warmaster came out in 1999, it was a real struggle to fine measuring tapes in centimeters, at least where I lived.

A fair number of European countries still use their old pre-Metric – come to think of it, Pre-Napoleonic – measurements. I have a square that has conversions to 'Zoll' of 25.4mm to the 'Zoll', from Austria IIRC. I have seen tape measures from Denmark that are in 'inches' but they are shorter than current US inches, possibly the new 'Continental' inches Ivan refers to.

Re-enactors should be trying to use Imperial measurements where they were used in the appropriate time period. It is amusing that so many Imperial and Metric measures appear to be based on 'natural' objects – the inch/25mm is a thumb width, 4 thumbs give a palm, 18 inches/45cm is a cubit etc.

I've a dual tape measure since time immemorial. In a wargaming environment I switch from Metric to Imperial and vice versa, depending on how the rules are written. Or to base widths or whatever other measure system is used in the rules I am gaming. As long as they are consistent throughout the rules, I am comfortable with it. Of course, in real life I use Metric system as it is the one I am used to.

In Australia, I was still taught imperial in infants, 1st and 2nd grade. Plus all the rules back then we're for years still in imperial.

I am happy using both.

Danske tommer or danish inches are a traditional unit of measure used in buiding industries. Like other pre metric units from differing countries. So in denmark inches are only used in measuring wood or in miniature gaming. Everything else is metric. It is simply easier.

A fair number of European countries still use their old pre-Metric – come to think of it, Pre-Napoleonic – measurements.

Really? Very hard to believe unless you give me some hard evidence of the opposite.

I've *never* encountered a pre-Metric measurement in any (non UK) EU country (I live in one and crisscross the continent regularly). Except perhaps in some niche application where an old measurement might still be used out of tradition or in a backwater rural village ;-)

And it's not because the words for old measurements might still be in use, that the old measurements themselves are still in use. The meaning of words has changed to adapt to the metric measurements over the centuries.

But back to wargaming:
If the rules specify inches, but you have a ruler in cm, this should be no big deal. Simply multiply everything by 2.5. Although I did encounter a fellow gamer who insisted on multiplying everything by 2.54.

However, if you have rules that use cm, but your ruler is in inches, it's a bit harder. Not the multpilication is hard, but reading the measurement from the ruler.

A fair number of European countries still use their old pre-Metric – come to think of it, Pre-Napoleonic – measurements.

As for my humble experience (56-year old, I was born in Barcelona, have spent some of my life in Madrid and Saragossa, and now I'm living in a small village in Catalonian countryside), I've never used (or seen the use) of a linear measurement different from metric.

The only one whose use I can attest is the Span ("pam" in Catalan, "palmo" in Portuguese and Spanish), roughly equivalent to 20 or 21 mm. But even when employed it's only used for indicating a non-exact, approximative measurement --when one doesn't know a precise size, or when one doesn't mind it.

Oh well, there's also the Mile ("milla") --but it's only used by people with some seafare knowledge.

Otherwise, metric system is always used everywhere by everybody here.

---

About using metric or imperial measures in wargaming, I've come to get accustomed to use both indistictly, and the measuring tapes I deserve for gaming are also dual. However, what uses to make me feel uncomfortable is the imperial system users' bias to use non-decimal fractions (it's quite harder to figure out what is 5/8 of something when you're accustomed to calculate in tenths…). That's all, though.

I've *never* encountered a pre-Metric measurement in any (non UK) EU country (I live in one and crisscross the continent regularly). Except perhaps in some niche application where an old measurement might still be used out of tradition or in a backwater rural village ;-)

Let's see … pull pin …

** ** * NAUTICAL MILE! * ** **

… duck

For the US side, I don't think there's a lack of comfort with cm. I see the unit used frequently with 15mm figures. People use whatever unit is most convenient based on size and resolution. For dinner-table approximate gaming, inches tend to keep you in the fingers-and-toes counting range for most rule sets, so that's probably why I see them used most frequently here. (Speaking of which, 1 degree Celsius is a horrible delta for room temperature adjustment – too big and clunky.)

Honestly, (almost) nobody uses the Metric System or the Imperial System for daily life … except 2.8cm wargamers. :)

I am comfortable with either. Most wagaming in Greece is 40K/Warhammer/FOG so most of it is inches. Inches measures are not widely available, but you can get them in hardaware stores.

I prefer cms to be frank.

The UK adopted the SI system. The cm isn't an SI unit (mm and m with nothing between). For all that schools teach cm and rules show them alongside inches.
We're an awkward lot us Brits.

Let's see … pull pin …
** ** * NAUTICAL MILE! * ** **

… duck

That's why I said "Except perhaps in some niche application … " ;-)

niche application

Every airplane that flies in Europe is a niche application? :) As well as ferries, boats, rivercraft, helicopters and cell phone gps satellite usage.

The term livre, the old French version of the pound, is still alive and well in most French markets. These days it tends to refer to half a kilo, but it is certainly the same old word.

I got used to using just imperial measurements in my rules since most of the customers are from strange lands where men were cats on their heads, speak in tongues and measure in inches.

Australia took from 1971 to 1988 to fully convert to metric (1966 to 1988 if you include the decimalisation of currency), although for most purposes we switched over in 1974 when the bulk of industry and the road signs changed over.

Schools stopped teaching imperial units in 1971 (which happens to be when I started kindergarten so I never got taught imperial units).

However, everyone still commonly uses feet and inches for body measurements, although kilos had no problem displacing pounds (took a while for the Stone as a personal weight measure to fall away, though. 14 pounds to the stone, I think). Celsius likewise had NO trouble displacing Fahrenheit pretty quickly. To be honest, it's a far easier scale to get a human handle on anyway – water freezes at zero, boils at 100. Those are practical, everyday concepts.

The current generation seem to be pretty much fully metric, aside from the wargamers :)

It is still standard for rulers and tape measures to be metric on the right side and imperial on the left. As with Canada, lots of legacy stuff that needs to be taken into account, especially with hardware and buildings.

And idioms usually retain the old measures, as they often do. I wouldn't walk a kilometre in someone's shoes, but might walk a mile.

To be honest, it's a far easier scale to get a human handle on anyway – water freezes at zero, boils at 100. Those are practical, everyday concepts.

Actually, this is one of the reasons SI hasn't caught on in places. In my every day life, water doesn't freeze at 0C and boil at 100C. It's somewhere near there, and variable depending on my local conditions. But not exactly.

And in every day life, I don't measure the temperature of water on the stove in order to boil it. I just heat it until it boils. Likewise with making ice cubes.

Zero and One Hundred are convenient for a grade school test, but not so much applicable to daily life.

What I do measure mostly in every day life is room temperature. One degree Fahrenheit is a fairly convenient way to adjust room temperature. One degree Celsius is a bit of a large chunk.

The other thing I do control temperature precisely is cooking, where 5's and 10's in F are reasonable increment. Two degrees C is pretty close to 5F for cooking purposes. Four and Five C is far enough off 10F for cooking.

The other bit about the SI is that it is all about easy conversion. I don't do any of that (in daily life) with temperature. The two things I routinely convert in daily life is time (which the SI doesn't do in base ten) and money (which SI doesn't do, but we can thank Russia for the first base 10 monetary system).

On most wargaming boards, one order of magnitude change is pretty much all you could do, and not often. (I'm talking to all the 2.8 cm gamers out there!)

SI makes it easy to relate volume with weight for everyday use. A 100mm cube encloses a litre, which weighs a kilogram when full of water.

How many pounds is a gallon of water?

My favourite gaming scale is 0.590551 inch but I've been dabbling with 0.23622 as well.

How many pounds is a gallon of water?

About eight. Which is pretty much a good enough guess for lots of liquids you cook with or, more importantly, have to carry with you camping, etc. So eight pounds is good enough for a gallon of milk (2%, skim, whole, goat, yak etc.). Not so much good enough for other things like gasoline, which is about six pounds, and good enough for it, lots of oils, and kerosene.

In construction, a typical wheelbarrow can handle about 25 gallons (which is about 100 litres), so about 200 pounds of water for concrete, well under the 500 pound typical weight rating. Since you need to remove water and put in concrete (which weighs more). Generally, you don't fill it to the top (not if you want to move it, which is what a wheelbarrow is for), and in no way are you using precise measurements. In supporting disaster relief efforts, same-same – you generally can't stack more gallons of water in a wheelbarrow than it can handle weight-wise. By a long shot.

Then again, in everyday life, I really don't care how much either weighs. A five gallon can of gasoline weighs about thirty pounds. But the number is irrelevant. Either you can lift it or you can't. And you're probably more worried about whether you need gloves to keep the handle from digging into your hand and how awkward it is to carry on one side.

So, how often do you need to know the weight of a litre of distilled water? What is your everyday use for that?

so the variations of pressure affecting '0' and '100' make celsius unsuitable, but hey.. 'about 8' is close enough for your purposes? Seems like you are just looking for reasons to hang on to inches.

I use a measuring stick. It is 8" long which is the width of a standard line formation of infantry. It's called a measure. Infantry and guns move one measure, cavalry two. Ranges are in measure also. So it doesn't matter if your metric or imperial, the stick is as long as needed.

I see two options
1) Play in the units where you live.
So, my guns can shoot 12 inches, yours can shoot 12 centimeters (seems fair)

2) Lets completely over complicate it and make customer rulers per scale. 28mm: 1 unit = 28mm; 15mm: 1 unit = 15mm.
We then have pity on those who build a house with a 28mm tape measure.
The crazy part, is that games would easily scale, just by the rulers/tape measures.