"Irish War of Independence. Where to Start?" Topic

I'm interested in gaming this for the first time. My Grandad's involvement always made me hesitant but now that my kids have reached a certain age I find myself telling them stories of the experiences of my family and it's become a case of wanting to make a start.

But where to? What are decent rules to game this period or gorilla type ambushing skirmish gaming. Minis for this conflict etc..

Thanks in advance for any info you can spare

Back in the day, there was a dedicated yahoo group that had quite a bit of information for war gaming it; unfortunately political debate caused the site to close down. There is a rule set and war gaming guide out there called the Black and Tan War by Leo Cronin. I had a copy and sold it. Lots of information in there as I recall. Pick up a book called Raids and Rallie by Ernie O'Malley, lots of good (and actual) scenarios in there. Osprey also has a book on the conflict but I'm not sure if it's any good. There are some decent ranges in 20mm, a scale which allow you to find vehicles and buildings with ease. Lastly, watch the movie The Wind that shakes the Barley. Hoe this helps!

Second the 20mm suggestion, lots of figures available,Emhar WW1 and HAT figures for starters with partisan and resistance figures from Caesar (maybe changing several weapons tno')…have a look on Plastic Soldier Review.
Vehicles from Front line Wargaming, early trucks and armoured CDs etc for starters….
Arc of Fire rules from Skirmish Campaigns are my go to set fortis era and low level insurgency.

Other companies like RHModels for metal figures and Eary War Miniatures for MRE vehicles..

This is a very interesting study, with lots of information and a large list of books:
link
Another book by O'Malley: On another mans's wound. As I understand it one of the best books on this conflict.

War Panda,
As someone who has attempted to game the period a couple times without success (my wife is Irish), I would suggest you watch three filsm before deciding -

The Informer
Michael Collins
The Wind that Shakes the Barley

It is a fascinating period to study, but gaming it, especially the civil war part is quite difficult. Pat Fitzgerald is quite the expert on the period and I believe he pops up here now and then.

I did it many years ago using Peter Pig's WW1, Spanish Civil War and Wild West ranges with head swaps.

I tweaked RFCM's Hey you in the Jail rules for the period, ie automatic weapons and vehicles, as it has a interesting pre-game game that fitted in quite nicely

Unfortunately I mislaid the paperwork

Pat has a locked account

War Panda,

I have a few books. We game both IWI and ICW here. Most books need reading with s healthy pinch of salt though. ;)

This is a good start;

link

link

The above is invaluable to anyone interested in this period.
The book Piers Brand mentioned is well worth getting and gives an good impartial look at the tactics both sides used.

@Prince Alberts Revenge

"Black and Tan War by Leo Cronin" and Raids and Rallie by Ernie O'Malley, lots of good (and actual) scenarios in there" Sounds great thanks for that. The Wind That Shakes The Barley" is a favourite of mine and I have it on DVD but I haven't watched it in years so I'll remedy that tonight.

@Gaz0045 Brilliant info. I had no idea who made this stuff so thanks for that

@Porthos Nice. I'll check those out too.

@nnascati

"Michael Collins
The Wind that Shakes the Barley"

Loved the last two and are a part of my collection but I wasn't familiar with the Informer so thanks for the heads up.

@Shedman I'm prone to a little lead head swapping from time to time :) I really like doing business with Peter Pig as well. Thanks

@Irish Marine Now I don't know what Pat did but it's one of the things that irks me about this place is you'll have a few fire starters here where every gets involved and you end up losing people that maybe could be actual helpful to the hobby itself

@PiersBrand

Piers I really appreciate the link :)

I have a few books. We game both IWI and ICW here. Most books need reading with s healthy pinch of salt though. ;)

Yes, well I was educated in Ireland (they had their hands full I tell ye) and so I learned to be wary of that :D

@macconermaoile Thanks I'll be sure to look into it then (it's good to have Piers' recommendations screened :D )

Cheers to all. A lot of great pointers and info for me to get more than my feet wet

"The Informer" is a rather dark film from 1935 starring Victor McGlaglen (sp?).

Footsore do a line of dedicated 28mm figures including Black and Tans, RIC and IRA plus early WW1 in service caps and Great War Miniatures also have lots of mid-late war Britsh suitable for IWI.Footsore also do a nice Lancia a/car and several companies do Crossley Tenders and Rolls Royce a/cars. Try not to become too involved in the politics and when reading up on the period,there are some excellent books written by both sides. In recent years several excellent books have been written from the British Crown forces perspective.

+1 dualer. Oxford aviation sell a pre-made painted 1/72 Bristol Fighter in the livery of "A" flight, 2 Squadron RAF, dated 1925 – an epoch when this squadron was supporting British Army operations in Ireland.

Sarissa precision have some lovely vehicles for the period in 1/56, cheap laser-cut MDF kits.

Guerrilla Days in Ireland by Barry is a good book. The Footsore minis are excellant.

Osprey titles Irish Volunteer Soldier 1913-23 and The Irish Defence Forces since 1922 are both valuable. I really value The War for Ireland 1913-1923 by Peter Cottrell, excellent military history with photos, maps, orders of battle. I play games in this period but they've all been hypothetical encounters, raids and skirmishes, not the usual and ungameable murders and ambushes that make up so much of the fighting. Set-piece battles as we know them are rare and one-sided, but that doesn't mean you can't make an enjoyable or balanced game. You only need care in setting up scenarios and victory conditions.

Some players have used the Two Hour Wargames rules, which I found disappointing (too much enforced idleness, too many fiddly rules to master); I've used the Pulp Alley rules myself with some success, they lend themselves well to historical skirmishing and play fast. Just ignore the "pulpy" elements (Peril cards and other random events), the movement and combat mechanisms are great and you can build a unit roster of individual abilities easily.

I've picked up figures from all sots of places, most of which I can't remember clearly -- mainly from the UK, or Australia, or the US/US distributors. Uniformed Irish Volunteers have been the hardest to obtain but I've converted Boers, Australians, and partisans and civilians and gangsters for my assortment of Irish Fenians, both uniformed and in mufti. Black and Tans and RIC police are made by a few folks, and other police or military figures can sometimes be converted successfully. Early WWI British make fine Tommies through 1916, or you can even use later war figures in tin hats. Various vehicles are available, as noted above, and don't overlook scale model "toys" for civilian motor cars and vans -- there have been several ranges of period non-military vehicles manufactured in the UK, good for villages and cityscapes. Lots of buildings and terrain features can be used from suitable eras, both urban and rural.

You don't have to have a lot of figures to put on a good game in this period.

Matchbox has Crossley Tenders in a scale that works with 28mm figures.
Perfect to game Tom Barry's Kilmichael ambush.

Some articles about how I approached it:

link

Where to start? Attack the post office of course …

Thanks again guys this is great.

dualer and Legbiter thanks for all the info guys. the more resources I have the better. I'm thinking of going 28mm or 20mm as I've buildings in both

In recent years several excellent books have been written from the British Crown forces perspective

Most of my reading has been very one sided so it would be great to see this from this new perspective. Truth might be found sometimes near the middle.

doctorphalanx I'm especially grateful to you doctor for your step by step guide on how you managed to start. Very inspiring and gives me something mentally concrete to work with

Winston Smith

Matchbox has Crossley Tenders in a scale that works with 28mm figures.
Perfect to game Tom Barry's Kilmichael ambush.

Thanks John. I was thinking 28mm was the route to go.

piper909 Thanks some great tips there. I just recent bought the Pulp Alley rules and really like the look of the combat system. Seems like they do well in creating the sense of a a real firefight.

The low number of minis needed was an attractive feature of the project as I've my thumb in too many pies right now.

I play games in this period but they've all been hypothetical encounters, raids and skirmishes, not the usual and ungameable murders and ambushes that make up so much of the fighting.

This was one of the reasons I wasn't originally too eager to game it. I was too aware of local skirmishes (not sure even if skirmish is a proper description) that were not particularly inspiring.

A few years back an author contacted my family back in Ireland enquiring into my Granddad's involvement in the war. His research had positioned him as a big player in the region during the period of Black and Tan activity. (Westmeath in the midlands). Unfortunately for him my Granddad didn't speak a word about his involvement in the Great War or the War of Independence.

One exception to this was the one time when my normally teetotaler Granddad actually got drunk with the visit of Uncle Ernie and began speaking of his war experiences, both in WWI and in the war against the Black and Tans.

He was a deeply religious man who was originally viewed as a coward by his family as he wanted no part in their activities. To the absolute outrage of his family (he was basically disowned) when he had joined the British army to fight in WWI. He was gassed in the war and was taken prisoner by the Germans. Ironically it seems this was one of the highlights of his life. He was sent to work on a german farm (where he learnt German). My mother believes from little things he'd say (and certain letters that he kept) that he actually fell in love with a daughter on the farm. He described the experience and family with real fondness.

Apparently it was only after the introduction of the Black in Tans and the murder of an elderly women in Coosan (burnt in her house after they barricaded the only door from the outside) that he got fully involved. All the stories of the ambushes he orchestrated were completely unknown to us.

The majority of I.R.A. Volunteers in the Westmeath of 1921 came from farming backgrounds. This saw the Black and Tans focusing their search for arms in many rural farmsteads around south Westmeath. In the early curfew hours of Saturday, 2 July, at about 2 a.m., a 'number of masked men [estimated at twelve] who carried revolvers and wore trench coats and tweed caps' burned five farmhouses in the Coosan district, belonging to a Mr. Thomas Duffy, Mr. Thomas Wansboro, Mr. Thomas Farrell, Mrs. Coghlan and a Mr. Patrick Moore.

The Black and Tans passed on to Mount Temple where they burned another farmhouse belonging to a Mrs. Hanevy. These families were described by the Westmeath Independent as: 'all hard-working, industrious people' that 'took no part in politics."

Full Story Here

One story thats worth retelling is the time his family's farm was raided by the newly appointed British Army Commander in Athlone Barracks wanted to make an immediate impression by taking out all the men of every known troublemaking family in the area. The Fitzpatrick's who were wealthy farmers and had a large contingent of older boys and men (including my Granddad) were high on the list. Their barn was full of rifles, shotguns and ammo when the early morning raid took place. All the men were lifted from their beds and taken outside at gunpoint. The Army were still busy rooting through the barn when something that was found was brought to the commander's attention.

You see in the previous months, two of the younger boys had brazenly taken down a Banner that had hung across the main street in Athlone town which read "Happy Birthday To The Queen"

The commander at the farm read the banner and immediately called off the search and began to apologize profusely to the men some of whom didn't even know of the existence of the Banner and were in a state of complete shock. He congratulated them for their devotion to the Crown and explained that the information he received was obviously a ploy to get him into trouble in the first days of his new position.

The author did mention that my Granddad led many ambushes on the Tan's and according to two different sources he refused to shoot without a call to them to surrender.

Again impossible to know how true theses stories are as we Irish do like a little embellishment now and then ;)

Indeed. A late aunt of mine used to regale us with stories of her father's house being raided by the Tans, and explained that they wore beautifully polished leather leggings. One of them gave her a halfpenny, and she remarked that they were very polite and caused no damage. Her father was halfway up the mountainside, of course, and was never arrested. He did very well out of the war, ending up owning hundreds of acres of hillside in Connemara, through his role in the unofficial land courts, and as an interpreter, being a native gaelic speaker, which very few Irish people are.

As far as scenarios are concerned, you could have the ambush and murder in Clifden of RIC constables.

"The facts of the case are as follow. At 10 p.m. on 16th March two policemen, Constable Reynolds and Constable Sweeney, on patrol with others at Clifden were shot down in cold blood at point-blank range by a party of civilians, some of whom were masked….. Sweeney, who was also an Irishman and had served with distinction in the Irish Guards, was severely wounded in three places and did not survive 48 hours"

That would make a good game, I'm sure. Then, once the brave IRA men have disappeared from the scene one could play the scenario that followed, when the RIC arrived the next day. I'm sure that there must be some means of assessing how many buildings could be burnt down and locals shot, whilst the Connemara Flying column were miles away.

More here:
link

Incidents like these would make for wonderful games, I'm sure.

Well as Tom Barry remarked "There are are no bad shots at 6 feet."

The Tans raided my great-granny's house several times, but they were not polite and they did break things. Another time my granduncle probably noticed their leather leggings, seeing as they almost kicked him to death. He spent months in hospital thanks to those gentlemen. All despite the fact he was a veteran of WW1, and was not involved politically.
Of course when he recovered, he became involved.

"Well as Tom Barry remarked "There are are no bad shots at 6 feet.""
Indeed, or at point blank range when the target is wounded and immobile; he should have known.

He was making the excellent military point that when your enemy is equipped with better and longer ranged firearms you should only engage at very close range in order to neutralise his advantage.

Do you still have the halfpenny?

No… She was one of 15, as far as I remember. She died some years ago, having been both a nurse and a Franciscan nun for her entire adult life.

As far as your first point is concerned, yes indeed, if one is carrying out an assassination one needs to be as close as possible. It also helps if there are a lot of you and if one's target is unaware that they're a target, then one can bravely shoot them at close range when they aren't even aware of the danger.

It would be suprising if any of of the Crown Forces in the Tan War doubted they were a target.

I played with the idea of gaming this period but after reading several histories, I concluded there was too much nastiness on both sides for me to wish to pursue this period. If you can find the "romance" for yourself go for it

I played with the idea of gaming this period but after reading several histories, I concluded there was too much nastiness on both sides for me to wish to pursue this period. If you can find the "romance" for yourself go for it

I completely understand your position.

I'm going to adopt a very fictional stance on this though. My ideal right now is a mix of skirmish (not sure what system to use but Pulp Alley was an original thought) roleplaying guided by a definite narrative following the activities of a newly formed group of reluctant but ideally driven individuals. I might even throw in an unexpected informant. I don't even intend there to be major blood shed in each scenario. Moving weapons to one of the local islands, scouting a barracks complex, interviewing new recruits, rescuing a family from a burning cottage, negotiating with the local Franciscan Guardian for the use of their basement. Trying to build to a scenario that has any real gunfire to be dramatic and tense. Might even include a sympathetic view of some of the local forces.

But a deep hatred of the Black and Tans has to be a major motivation to the group's activities. If someone in the group (and I already know who that might be) wants to play a vicious psychopath who is enjoying himself then all the better) but for me there should be a villain and historically there is in this case a real one. I see it as an opportunity to research some real events and borrow bits and pieces. An friend of mine's Dad remembered the entire troop saying the Rosary in a small shed before running out to ambush the local B&T's. Not many shots were fired but a deadly chase ensued. Depending on the Skirmish system I possibly won't even initially tell the players whether they hit anyone or not. They might find that out the next day etc

This might or might not work. Knowing the players I think it can

I find it a fascinating period, at this safe remove of time and distance, and as someone with no direct personal connection, only an "academic" interest. But I understand fully the lasting bitterness and legacy of hatreds that this still-modern conflict bred. Making a "game" of such events can seem frivolous or disrespectful or ignorant. The same could be said of many wars where participants or their families are still living. (We have no Romans or Carthaginians today to experience partisan rancor at our Ancients games, fortunately.)

The best one can do, perhaps, is to be aware of this element and structure our "games" accordingly. That's why our games locally have been fairly "conventional" scenarios involving raids, skirmishes, ambushes, fairly direct clashes between armed groups and not massacres, assassinations, terror tactics, or any of the uglier aspects of a guerilla war. Attack on a police barracks or an enemy convoy or to seize (or protect) an arms cache, or blow up some telephone poles to break government communications or establish open control of a village -- these lend themselves better to tabletop actions.

Something I sometimes do as a game master for my scenarios, to add some period realism that you don't often get from large-scale games and periods, is employ civilians of various sorts in various pre-determined ways. Farmers, wives, townspeople, noncombatants -- place them in appropriate places and factor them into the victory conditions, so that the players are penalized for causing mayhem among civilians. If the British regulars shoot into a church and hit the priest or a nun, for example, they forfeit victory points. If the Fenians toss a petrol bomb into a vehicle and it contains a civilian and NOT a policeman, they forfeit points. And so on. You can also secretly assign loyalties to certain civilians and direct them to assist one side or the other under certain circumstances, to add a level of uncertainty for the players as to who is hostile and who is not.

In one game I used some Pulp Figures press minis, reporters and photographers, as NPCs and they hovered around the battlefield being nuisances to all and affecting VP totals by documenting any "atrocities" they witnessed. This had the amusing and realistic effect of causing the players to play to the press as much as pay attention to what their enemies were doing.

PS: I forgot to note that good civilian and paramilitary figures can be found in the Very British Civil War ranges.

"But a deep hatred of the Black and Tans has to be a major motivation to the group's activities."

I'm sure that it will be, especially if the people involved are either deeply partisan and/or profoundly ignorant of who and what the Tans were

"If someone in the group (and I already know who that might be) wants to play a vicious psychopath who is enjoying himself then all the better) but for me there should be a villain and historically there is in this case a real one."

Is there? To play the IRA or the Tans? As to the "historical villains" are you referring to IRA assassins or the Tans? In neither case are we talking about absolute heroes or absolute villains.

Oh Bugg@r, try looking at the murder of DI Michael Hunt of the RIC at Thurles, or the RIC people at the Soloheadbeg Ambush, or at the murders of the RIC people in Clifden. It is, after all, so much easier to murder policemen when they don't know that they are targets.

One could play out other interesting scenarios as well. The execution of a police informer, for example. The "lads" could see if they could surprise and capture a known informer at their home, then take a "chance" throw to determine what the punishment should be. For example, a woman with learning difficulties informs the RIC that people are making illicit poteen. Once she's captured, the player controlling bold IRA men throw a dice:
1-2 They decide that, because she is supporting a disabled brother and two parents suffering from dementia, she is let off with a warning.
3-4 They decide that, because she is supporting a disabled brother and two parents suffering from dementia, she is let off with a humiliating punishment, being tied with wire to a telegraph pole with a placard around her neck telling passers by that she's a police informer.
5-6 They decide that, despite her supporting a disabled brother and two parents suffering from dementia, she is to serve as an example to others and she is summarily shot.
Guess which was the historical outcome…..
Despite being described by the local IRA as "scarcely normal and not sufficiently intelligent to cloak her activities", she was shot, and her body was displayed with a placard reading "Spies and informers beware. Tried and executed by the IRA". Walsh (see above), pages 254,5.

You assume that is news to me, its not.

You talk about the RIC as if they were country bobbies, instead of an armed force operating against their own nation. Many resigned, others changed side. Those who did not picked their side and lived, or not, with the consequences. Tom Barry of course was a former British soldier and by his own admission an apolitical man. Circumstances changed that.

I often wonder if history would have been changed if the young Captain Percival, an enthusiastic hands on torturer in Ireland, had been shot by Barry and co instead of going on to become the General who surrendered Singapore to an inferior Japanese force. We cannot know, but we do know that every war we denizens of TMP game was a bloody affair where people died.

False piety about the Tan War leaves me cold-it was what it was and the right side won. I don't game it myself but that's just me, if others enjoy it, fair play to them.

They were indeed country bobbies, it being a well respected job, and they were well respected. They were only regarded as an armed force operating against their own nation by the Republicans, who were, until the aftermath of 1916, indifferent to independence at best. Nationalism had had to be deliberately and consciously created out of nothing. Killing RIC men, in order to break the authority of Dublin Castle in the countryside, was one of Sinn Fein's strategies, carried out by the IRA, as Walsh points out (I'll give you the page reference in the morning) the RIC considered themselves to be as Irish as the IRA.
I'm not sure what you mean by false piety, perhaps you can enlighten me? Did the right side win? Ireland could have gained everything it has now by peaceful means, and, to be honest, I'm not sure that the Ireland of the Free State, or even up to the 1980's even was really a success story, either economically or socially. As Bob Geldoff put it so well YouTube link

I don't mind discussing stuff but Geldoff is is a step too far for me.

Do you really think the RIC was respected when they provided security for evictions. Now that's emotive stuff, families put on the road etc but the constant low level spying didn't endear them to the populace either. Nor did grovelling to the ascendancy. When push came to shove a lot of the RIC voted with their feet and who could blame them. Nor did all the RIC consider themselves Irish many West Britons could be found beyond the rank of constable.

Republicans were never indifferent to independence it was their raison detre. The general population when given the chance to endorse it did so.

You will find it is impossible to create anything out of nothing. There is a whole scholarly literature on how revolutions happen, none of it begins with 'nothing'.

I suppose what I mean by false piety is that this is a site about wargaming and we rarely see such contributions as yours about other conflicts. As such your pique about the Tan war is unusual.

Ireland most certainly could not have gained everything it has now by peaceful means, did you never read of the Curragh Mutiny? But really, how does any of this help the lads on this thread game a good ambush?

As to your opinion of the Irish Republic you will note whatever its short comings there is no popular call for a return to British rule.

No view from you on Percival then? Shame, he helped shape the modern world as did Tom Barry of course.

" there is no popular call for a return to British rule."

As the Victorians used to say, "A fate worse than death"

Something I sometimes do as a game master for my scenarios, to add some period realism that you don't often get from large-scale games and periods, is employ civilians of various sorts in various pre-determined ways. Farmers, wives, townspeople, noncombatants -- place them in appropriate places and factor them into the victory conditions, so that the players are penalized for causing mayhem among civilians. If the British regulars shoot into a church and hit the priest or a nun, for example, they forfeit victory points. …..

@piper909 I really love your ideas for scenarios. Thanks. Have you a website with reports by any chance? I'll check out the Very British Civil War.

In one game I used some Pulp Figures press minis, reporters and photographers, as NPCs and they hovered around the battlefield being nuisances to all and affecting VP totals by documenting any "atrocities" they witnessed. This had the amusing and realistic effect of causing the players to play to the press as much as pay attention to what their enemies were doing.

Hilarious, the reactions of players never ceases to amaze and entertain me :D

I'm sure that it will be, especially if the people involved are either deeply partisan and/or profoundly ignorant of who and what the Tans were

@Chouan I'm not sure what sources that have shaped your view of how the B&T's conducted themselves in Ireland during that period (apart from the story you told earlier) but growing up in Ireland in the locality of Coosan I have listened to an entire community of witnesses who spoke of their activities and they spoke only of the most heinous acts of unprovoked brutality. Interestingly the same people spoke very well of the regular British authorities and of most British themselves. These first hand accounts have certainly shaped my interpretation of the B&T's and their activities. . But I'm not naive enough to think all republicans were heroic freedom fighters nor do I think that every Black and Tan was a murderous psychopath.

Is there? To play the IRA or the Tans? As to the "historical villains" are you referring to IRA assassins or the Tans? In neither case are we talking about absolute heroes or absolute villains.

When I mentioned someone playing a "psychopath" in the context of the game I actually meant a republican. Not that it matters; or does it to you? You seem to be highly defensive.

As to the "historical villains" I'm obviously referring to the policing force established by the foreign occupier who consistently acted not just outside the law but against any notion of morality against a civilian population of an sovereign nation. If you are incapable of condemning the countless atrocities committed by them I'd have to ask you why? No matter what political or nationalistic you are affiliated to.

I don't mind discussing stuff but Geldoff is is a step too far for me.

Yep. Me too

"Do you really think the RIC was respected when they provided security for evictions. Now that's emotive stuff, families put on the road etc but the constant low level spying didn't endear them to the populace either. Nor did grovelling to the ascendancy. When push came to shove a lot of the RIC voted with their feet and who could blame them. Nor did all the RIC consider themselves Irish many West Britons could be found beyond the rank of constable."

It was considered to be a very respectable job, which was why, despite the low pay, there was a waiting list to join. It only became a less respectable job when the RIC became targets for IRA assassination. I'm sure that most people would be less than willing to remain in a post that made them a target for murder. I note with interest that you use the expression "West Briton" in it's modern derogatory sense, which is very revealing.

"Republicans were never indifferent to independence it was their raison detre. The general population when given the chance to endorse it did so."

You must have misread, or misunderstood, what I wrote. I was referring to the Irish population at large, not Republicans, who, obviously, were in favour of a Republic! Tim Pat Coogan suggests that perhaps 1% of the population of Ireland may have been in favour of independence before 1916, no more. Of course, that percentage increased post 1916, but not by much. Far more of the population, but still not a majority, were in favour of Home Rule, which a majority of the rest of the UK also supported. It was only the Tories, and their allies the Unionists who were opposed to it, and even then only for Party Political reasons in order to challenge the Liberals.

No comment on Perceval, indeed, but only through lack of time. That he was an out and out bastard is clear, to me. I'm convinced that his views were, effectively, racially motivated, and had little or nothing to do with any ideological stance, that and some kind of sadistic streak, perhaps. On the other hand, there is no actual evidence that he was responsible for any torture at all, he may well have been a very effective counter-insurgency operator, and was, therefore marked for assassination, with alleged torture as the justification. Nationalist history is always a minefield, as there is always an agenda to support the movement, no matter what.

Why would there be a call for a return to the Crown? Independence was gained in 1921, with British agreement, essentially because the British population didn't support the repression. Home Rule would have eventually led to independence anyway, and if there hadn't been a rising in 1916, Home Rule would have been achieved before 1921, as the Liberal landslide election win of 1918 would have allowed the Liberals to introduce Home Rule, which had been a corner stone of their policies for years, without opposition from the Tories and the Unionists would have had to accept it. There wouldn't have been a Civil War either, that cost even more Irish lives!

However, the Irish governments that followed independence do not have a very good record. Their, at best, deeply paternalistic, and deeply conservative attitudes kept Ireland in a kind of economic and social dark age for decades. Of the 15 children I mentioned earlier, only three stayed in Ireland, the rest left for the US or the UK. One inherited his father's job, one inherited his father's land, and the other, a girl, married a local farmer, and most of their children now live in the UK or in the US. I won't go into the less than savoury history of the Church in Ireland, whose shocking behaviour towards the innocent and vulnerable is only just becoming apparent publicly, although everybody knew of the misdeeds in the "Industrial Schools" and the Magdelene Laundries and Asylums that everybody knew about, but did nothing to stop.

"As to the "historical villains" I'm obviously referring to the policing force established by the foreign occupier"

You seem to be of the nationalist school that refers to the Brits as a force of occupation, part of the nationalist mythos.

"…. who consistently acted not just outside the law but against any notion of morality"

Are you referring to the RIC, the Tans or the Auxiliaries? Are you really suggesting that the RIC consistently acted outside the law? Really?

"against a civilian population of an sovereign nation."

More nationalist rhetoric. The Irish people had no more concept of being a sovereign nation before 1916 than the Welsh or the Scots. They were proud of their identity as being Irish, of course, but that is not the same thing at all. Bear in mind that the RIC were almost exclusively Irish themselves, at least until the IRA started murdering them, when recruitment was opened in the UK at large.

"If you are incapable of condemning the countless atrocities committed by them I'd have to ask you why?"

Straw man. Where have I suggested that "the Tans" didn't commit atrocities? You don't need to ask why, since I'm not incapable of condemning them.

"I'm not sure what sources that have shaped your view of how the B&T's conducted themselves in Ireland during that period (apart from the story you told earlier)"

Studying Irish History at university.

"but growing up in Ireland in the locality of Coosan I have listened to an entire community of witnesses who spoke of their activities and they spoke only of the most heinous acts of unprovoked brutality."

As indeed they would, I'd be surprised if they didn't.

"Interestingly the same people spoke very well of the regular British authorities and of most British themselves."

No doubt.

"These first hand accounts have certainly shaped my interpretation of the B&T's and their activities."

As they, of course, would.

"But I'm not naive enough to think all republicans were heroic freedom fighters nor do I think that every Black and Tan was a murderous psychopath."

Good.

As far as game scenarios are concerned, the one I suggested earlier would be well balanced.
Scenario 1) Local IRA assassination squad murders two RIC constables (Reynolds and Sweeney, both Irish) as they walk along Main Street towards Market Street (a place I know very, very well) in Clifden (where three of my cousins live). Some sort of game mechanism could be sorted out for the actual murders. The real scenario had 6 assassins, and 12 men to keep the police barracks under fire to prevent the rescue of the patrolling country bobbies. Two of them were lucky, as they'd popped into a pub for a quick pint, and thus escaped being murdered. Having bravely murdered the two unsuspecting constables (that one died of his wounds the following day doesn't materially change the outcome.) the brave lads escape into the surrounding area, leaving the locals to face the consequences, that the bold IRA men fully understood.

Scenario 2) The RIC and some Auxiliaries arrive by special train from Galway. In retaliation for the murders, they set fire to 12 buildings (2 of the householders I am related to), and shoot 2 local men, John McDonnell and Peter Clancy.

As has been suggested, some wars are too close to home, as it were, but a "war" in which most of the deaths were murders, assassinations and executions is one that is difficult to turn into a game.
Actual "battles" that could be gamed reasonably would be very difficult to do so realistically. An ambush on a Crown Forces patrol in tenders, for example, which would seem to be favourite, wouldn't really work. The IRA ambushers would open fire, then, if the troops/RIC/Auxiliaries return effective fire, the IRA would, sensibly, vanish. Not much of a game really…..

You seem to be of the nationalist school that refers to the Brits as a force of occupation, part of the nationalist mythos.

Chouan I'm sincerely grateful you opened with this as its spared me a lot of unnecessary reading. I've absolutely no desire to waste time communicating with someone who is determined to believe in an entirely fictitious world history unless its actually recognized fantasy. Perhaps we can discuss Lord of the Rings sometime.

I pray for healing and peace for you. All the best.

Thanks again for all the recommendations and advice. Its been really helpful.

I'll post later with an update on what I eventually ordered for those interested.

I'll certainly post my first AAR too. Hopefully it'll go well. I'm actually really excited about the project. I've very grateful for the links on both book research and the miniature and modelling end. Thankfully I game Western WW2 so I've quite a bit of terrain features and the rest can be gradually added.

The responses here have motivated me to finally try it out.

To those who are upset by the thoughts of gaming this period I can fully understand and appreciate your position.

To those upset by the idea of OTHERS gaming this period of history I think you should understand that not everyone shares your feelings. You should probably move onto something that is of a positive interest for you.

No desire to waste time with a person who has a different point of view? Fair enough. I'm sure that the myths that you heard at your mother's knee are good enough for you. Fairy stories of dastardly British invasion and occupation should keep your nationalist spirits up , no doubt you'll pass them on to your children. After all, if one repeats the myth for long enough, it eventually becomes perceived as the truth.
Next thing you'd be arguing was that NORAID was a charitable institution!

LoL, it's difficult not to be amused by your rhetoric and your persistence in your delusional convictions.

No desire to waste time with a person who has a different point of view?

Not if its with some lunatic arguing the colour of the grass.

I'm sure that the myths that you heard at your mother's knee are good enough for you

Hey, did you just inadvertently give me an insight into your own delusional position :) Not all Black and Tan's went around handing out candy and halfpennies to Irish kids you know. There's a whole history that you are obviously unaware of.

Look, you're obviously able to work a computer so I'll presume you're at a age where if you're already clinging to such fantasies then you're not a man for turning. But I wish you well…but no more silliness ok? Any further correspondence will most likely degenerate into a Monty Python sketch…if it hasn't slightly already.

You're working for a virtual scrap and that's immensely brave of you but I'm interested in table-top wargaming and not this silly nonsense.

Done.

By the way, War Panda, why pray for peace and healing for me? I'm quite happy to be Irish, and European, without any need to hate hereditary enemies, or subscribe to nationalist myths deliberately created to further a political agenda. I do find it sad that others seem to need to sustain the "British occupation" myth. Apart from it being a myth, it does nothing to help Ireland develop, after all, Ireland has enough positives, and negatives, of its own without having to dwell on a fictitious past as part of its identity.
You might find this picture of interest; Tans celebrating the ceasefire with the crowds on 11/7/1921.

What is a "virtual strap"?
As far as family folk tales are concerned, I'm pretty sure that the "Tans" that my aunt spoke of were actually Free State soldiers, as they habitually wore leather gaiters, and the Tans didn't……

That should read "scrap" …although strap might work too

Nice pic. Again obviously all Tans were not terrible men. Not all were handing out halfpennies either. I think we'd both agree on that.

So in the interests of impartiality Chouan what would you advise me to read to give me a broader more balanced view of the Tans?

By the way, War Panda, why pray for peace and healing for me?

Hey I'm married with 5 kids so if you're a praying man I could always do with some thrown my way too.

This is why I avoid war-gaming stuff were people involved are still alive (I am breaking this rule with Greeks and Italians for 1940, but I reckon no one alive then will be around).

I do not agree with Chouan that Home Rule would had come by peace. I mean there is a good argument to make, Clark in "Sleepwalkers" points at it, that the War Tories (Henry Wilson) supported Grey's war Liberals in 1914 because they thought a European war would scuttle Home Rule. The Unionists were prepared to fight in 1914, and I do not see them not fighting Home Rule in 1918. Whether it would had been a conflict as big and bloody as the historical one is another question. But fighting it would be.

Also while it is fair to criticize the failures of independent states, it is not always fair to assume had things gone the other way things would be better. Greece was pretty much a problem states 1830-1900. Not sure if it had remained an Ottoman province it would had been better off (and I actually an working slowly on an optimistic alternative history scenario on this, and I am running at stone walls at some point that point to civil war in the Empire as had to avoid).

A single text on the Tans, I'm not sure, but a single volume on the War in question, I would recommend this one link by this bloke mauricewalsh.net
A good thing to watch on the War is this YouTube link This is just part 1.