"Newbie Waterloo questions" Topic

Hi guys

A couple of questions and both of these have been bugging me for some time

1) Was the French Middle Guard used at Waterloo . This topic has confused me now for some time. Some commentators include them others don't . Some Order of battle include them others don't. Some sources state they wern't used after 1813 . So I am just confused .com about this one !

2) The 95th Rifles was in Picton's First brigade at Waterloo . How were they organise and used? In the Peninsular war they were parcelled out to other brigades but this doesn't appear to be the case at Waterloo .Assuming the latter and with a large formation of men how are these best represented on the table top in games like Blackpowder where the basic building block is the regiment?

Thanks

The title Middle Guard was not used, but the regimental numbers that had made up the Moyen, were certainly involved, probably more that the "Old Guard" of history.

1st/95th in Kempt's Brigade behind LHS. 2/95th and two cos of 3/95th with Adam's Brigade and involved in the flanking attack on the Guard at the end. Other than the sandpit opposite LHS, it is notable that 95th spent the day fighting as a Line unit, ie line, columns and squares! Picton commanded a Division, the 5th, not just a brigade.

So for the 95th , I should be looking for marching type models instead of all skirmishing pose types as normally offered by figure companies ?

Unfortunately, other than the lads down at the sandpit…that is largely the case. Not to say they would not have used skirmishers, but these battalions were there that day, primarily, to hold the line…

Was the French Middle Guard used at Waterloo

Strictly, no.

The Middle Guard was a grade that existed between 1812 to 1813. It was essentially the 2nd Regiments of Grenadiers and Chasseurs, the 3rd (Dutch) Regiment of Grenadiers, the Fusiliers-Grenadiers, and the Fusiliers-Chasseurs.

The 3rd Grenadiers (Dutch) were destroyed in Russia and the Fusiliers were not reactivated in 1815. Davout's War Ministry classified all 1815 regiments of Guard Grenadiers and Chasseurs as Old Guard. Everyone else was Young Guard. There are, however, contemporary figures who referred to the junior Grenadier and Chasseur regiments as Middle Guard, such as Marshal Ney at his trial and Sergeant Mauduit of the 1st Grenadiers who rather snootily disses the 2nd Regiments as Middle Guard in his memoirs.

The French term was moyenne Garde, which is usually translated as middle, but moyen/ne also has the sense or alternative meaning of "middling" or indeed "average", which one senses is the slightly bitchy way Mauduit was using it.

It is not always appreciated that Young Guard formations included members of the Old Guard (officers for instance ranked as Old Guard even when the formation as a whole did not).

The 95th Rifles was in Picton's First brigade at Waterloo . How were they organise and used?

As deadhead observes, in close order, largely. Adam's brigade was in the left rear of Hougoumont on Wellington's right centre. During the cavalry attacks they were assaulted by the 12th cavalry division of carabiniers and cuirassiers, which seems to have suffered proportionately more officer casualties…

On that basis can say the Victrix Middle Guard models be used for Waterloo?

As regards the 95th Rifles, Front Rank appear to produce appropriate figures in marching order . So thankfully they could be represented well on the table top.

That last sentence above. How interesting, never heard that before and obvious implications for effectiveness of riflemen, even if lower rate of fire and in close order!

I don't think the 95th WERE parcelled out in the Peninsula.

It was the 5th Bn of the 60th that was split into penny packets to strengthen the skirmish lines of infantry brigades. Same goes for about 3 companies of Brunswickers.

The 95th were kept together in the Light Division and used mostly as complete battalions.

All regiments of Grenadiers and Chasseurs of the Guard were, in 1815, supposed to be dressed in normal Old Guard kit. The old assumption was that the 3rd and 4th Grenadiers and Chasseurs didn't receive all the proper kit in time, and looked a bit motley, but I remember that was challenged on TMP a while back.

So there might be some in shakoes, not bearskins. Or there might not. Depends who you listen to.

Thanks guys for your input. That has helped lots with my understanding of the 2 topics. It appears every book I picked up and read left me more confused!

It sounds like modelling the 3rd and 4th Grenadiers and Chasseurs could actually be fun using various types of head wear ( bear skins excepted) and making them look motley. I think painting the great coats different colours ( similar to the line colours) and of course in addition to the blue guardsman great coat could help with this effect.

My two pennies worth, and YMMV of course. But depending on how many figures you have in a battalion, it can sometimes look odd to have too many different colours/headgear etc.

But that is entirely one's own choice of course – I'm just saying.

And I would imagine the 3 and 4 regiments tried as hard as they could to obtain uniformity

Thanks
Well I suppose I could keep the majority of Great Coats blue and perhaps just different head gear , bear headed ,Shakoes,Fatigue caps and bicorns. I am quite open to ideas

Indeed deadhead. It's almost as though the carabiniers went up against a unit that was trained and equipped to pick off commanders and leaders, or something….

If I were gaming against riflemen I think I would apply higher penalties to any unit under fire from them to reflect this: i.e. -1 if under skirmisher fire but -2 if under rifle fire. Numbers of losses probably less significant than quality of losses.

There is an interesting quote in the French Perspective from the rifles, where they talk of standing in square out of ammo, in a stand off with the cavalry.

Me, I am against giving rifles too much of an advantage, as I am not convinced they were battle winning super weapons. I think smoke, confusion, slow loading would all have contributed to combat effectiveness being reasonably level. A lot of nations had rifles but there seems little to suggest they were +1 in the rules

Mind you, I am (despite my country of birth) not a great "pro Brits" guy in Napoleonic wargaming, so that may have a bigger influence…

As I understand it, there were limitations on rifles:
1. Time to load. The ball had to be forced down the barrel to get it to engage the rifling. This was done with cloth patches and took time. However, if you did not engage the rifling you could load your rifle as quickly as a regular musket, with similar accuracy. I've read from other threads that the British rifles had different sized balls depending on whether they were sniping or firing volley.
2. The British had the Baker Rifle, which was shorter than the rifles other nations used, and could be loaded more quickly than them.
3. When conducting mass fire in formation volume is more important than aim, I wouldn't give any advantage to rifles than muskets at all. Smoke obscures the target as well.

So for the 95th , I should be looking for marching type models instead of all skirmishing pose types as normally offered by figure companies ?

I've gone for marching/advancing figs for the (very small detachment) of the 3rd Battalion, and a firing line for the 2nd Battalion (supporting the 52nd Foot).

For the first battalion there there were 6 companies – 2 in the sandpit and one covering on the knoll, and the other three further back as part of Picton's line. I'm using skirmishing figs for the first 3 companies and, using lots of conversions, a general "standing about" pose for the other three companies – see pic here of work in progress for the "standing about" chaps.

For rifles deployed as normal infantry, I'd give them a touch more range but probably not any particular firepower bonuses.

The 95th in Spain were usually kept together. 1 full battalion in each brigade of the light division.

It was the Brunswick Oels jäger companies (green coats) and companies of the 5/60th that were parcelled out to other brigades.

I think some companies of the 3rd/ 95th might have been sent to join forces in other theatres where there were no riflemen.

Waterloo they had 2 and a half battalions and most of them were in the thick of it. Though one unit spent most of the day in line I think.

@ Marc

In my rules +1 is not a big deal :-)

Ah. Just saw footslogger post.

Thanks for your input guys . Also to Lord Hill for his pictures and ideas .

As a Newbie for this theatre you have all been a great help and a big thanks to you all .

Still undecided which French to go for. Either normal line or Guard . Both have their appeals. As a modeller and painter the Guard just edge it a bit with the Beautiful cavalry uniforms.

For the Brits I have already picked Picton's Division which will give me some variety .I already have a painted Victrix metal model of Picton already painted .