ghpainting | 29 Jan 2017 9:56 a.m. PST |
Dear tmp members, I was wondering if someone could help me with some questions regarding the regiment. Firstly about their union flag, were they carring the regular one with the stars arranged in rows or one with the stars arranged in a star pattern as shown here: link Secondly the drum boy's drum could be painted like this:
Or was it painted in a deferent way? Any help would be appreciated. Cheers George
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Rhino Co | 29 Jan 2017 11:06 a.m. PST |
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Rhino Co | 29 Jan 2017 11:23 a.m. PST |
Not sure where Don did his research, but here's another regimental color. |
ghpainting | 29 Jan 2017 12:01 p.m. PST |
Thank you up until i saw your first post i was going to use dons regimental colors now i am more confused |
Frederick | 29 Jan 2017 12:31 p.m. PST |
Here are the standards the re-enactors use link |
TKindred | 29 Jan 2017 1:21 p.m. PST |
Troiani's flag is the NY state flag, IIRC. Presented to them by the City of New York. here is a replica, though the blue field would be the same dark blue as all federal regimental flags, and not as dark as this one appears. link |
Ryan T | 29 Jan 2017 5:53 p.m. PST |
According to the State of New York Bureau of Military Records, Presentation of Flags of New York Volunteer Regiments (1861) the 5th New York returned three flags to the State. One was a national flag with the stars in the canton in the shape of a large star. This flag was only carried in action at the battle of Big Bethel on June 10, 1861. A second national flag is listed as having been presented by the City of New York in 1862 and subsequently was in use from the Peninsula Campaign to Chancellorsville. What pattern this flag was is unknown. However, a sketch by the wartime artist Edwin Forbes depicts the 5th New York during the winter of 1862-63. This drawing shows a very tattered National flag that, given the shape of the canton, may have been a flag issued to the regiment from the Philadelphia QM Depot. The third flag is a regimental flag with the arms of the United States and "Fifth Zoauve Reg't. N. Y .V." inscribed on the banner below the eagle. The flag is described as being a government supplied flag and matches the pattern of such flags issued by the Philadelphia Depot. This would therefore seem to add credence to the source of the flag in the Forbes drawing as the two flags may have been issued as a stand of two colours. The 5th New York is also known to have obtained a flag from the City of New York. This is the flag depicted in the Trioiani painting. His work is well researched so this flag probably was carried as either an alternative to the US regimental or in conjunction with that flag. Philadelphia Depot pattern national colour:
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TKindred | 29 Jan 2017 7:37 p.m. PST |
Ryan, It is also possible that the NY State seal flag was retired at some point and the federal regimental drawn to replace it. The 3rd Maine's beautiful Maine "war seal" flag was captured at Chancellorsville, and the regiment requested, and received (post Gettysburg) a standard regimental flag to replace it. Prior to that, the 3rd's National color had been so shot up that it was returned to the Governor's office, and a replacement depot pattern drawn. It is entirely possible that the shot-up or damaged NY state seal flag was returned to the governor, or even the AAG's office, and got lost in all the paperwork/storage problems post war. |
Ryan T | 29 Jan 2017 8:35 p.m. PST |
Hello Tim, It is quite possible that the US regimental flag replaced the NY flag. But the Presentation of Flags mentions that the US regimental flag had the top of its staff shot off at Gaines Mill. The Troiani print is also is supposed to depict Gaines Mill… |
ghpainting | 30 Jan 2017 4:11 a.m. PST |
Thank you Ryan you ve been most helpful. I think i will go with the NY State flag and Philadelphia Depot pattern national colors combination. But what about the drums…. |
TKindred | 30 Jan 2017 6:26 a.m. PST |
Drums drawn from government stores were painted according to branch of service. The background color is the same as the flag field, with the arms of the United States emblazoned on the front. Drums bought from contractors privately could also be painted as per US regulations, OR could be plain maple, brass, or anything else. FWIW, this is one area where I diverge from the regulations. I paint the shells on ALL my drums red, with white tension cords. Heads are usually a light ochre, to represent animal skin heads. I just happen to like the way they look, with red shells, and have stuck with that over the years. |
Trajanus | 30 Jan 2017 6:46 a.m. PST |
Flags are tricky things. As pointed out they were issued, withdrawn, reissued on an iratic basis. One which artists and wargames flag makers are hard put to follow. My 28mm Perry Zouaves have the wrong Regimental flag. It's not technically incorrect as it was made but as it turns out, never issued. The correct one is shown in Troiani's painting of Saunders Field. Unfortunately, I purchased without seeing a photo. When I pointed this out to the supplier they were kinda like, OK I'll bear it in mind! What was all the more aggravating was that the only photo on line I could find anywhere for this unit was of the "wrong" flag and the accompanying text clearly said the flag was never issued! |