"Legion 4 - Locked Account?" Topic

The TMP Talk forum makes no pretense about gaming, it is solely for specifics about the site, relatively predictable meltdowns and all.

The UM Board pretends to be about gaming but even a cursory review of the overwhelming majority of threads shows that pretense is pure sham for a thinly veiled trolling for political meltdown, appropriate for Blue Fez but any gaming discussions are accidental at best and about as common as tofu burgers at a high end steak house.

If a political thread within the regular boards is desired, and we once had one, then fine but let's cut the bovine fecal matter and call it that without the silly facade that constitutes the "ultra-modern gaming but really not relating to gaming board". If maturity is the issue then surely we can call things by what they actually are.

Thanks for unlocking him Bill.

So since he got unlocked, can we unlock the people who got banned after voicing their opinions in the "Sad TMP" thread?

"We should all be intolerant to intolerance!".

LOL.

The frequently intolerant calling for tolerance.

Those same "tolerant" people all for nuking a whole board, which IIRC (AND I do), was set up specifically so those who get offended by discussions about current and recent military events, news stories, and discussions can steer clear of that.

They have the option to click on Ultramodern Gaming, instead.

Of course, what do they do? They click on the Ultramodern Board instead, and then, click on postings there, and then complain about it, because they're unable to exercise a degree of self-control, and not click on the link.

Hysterical!

Then of course, those same "tolerant" individuals want the board eliminated, despite the opinions of others who find it useful and/or inspirational for coming up with scenarios, and/or keeping up with military equipment rollouts, performance analyses, wargames run by the professionals, and opinions.

So much for tolerance.

@ Mako

Did you read the post you quoted? Either you didn't or perhaps I didn't write in a simple enough fashion. Either way you did not understand it.

I'll try again.

I am intolerant of racists, war-mongers, Hate-merchants etc. These warped individuals tend to hide behind the mantra of free speech. They mostly spring from a self-loathing & sense of inferiority but even so, I'll save my sympathy for their victims.

If you feel you should be able to say what you like, I'd have to suggest you,at least, look at the rules of TMP.

Your justification for the UM boards is, at best, thread-bare. Surely that's not the best you can come up with?

So much for bigotry.

There are not the forums… it's about people performance… not far away many people with torches claim that Napoleon Forum has to go too…

That's the best argument for freeing Legion 4 that anyone's come up with so far.

I imagine if people learned to keep it in their pants and kept politics to the UM board, it wouldn't be a problem.

In other words, the exact same issue as the old "Current Affairs" board.

I am going to say, that I may had been too hard on Legion. We all have our prejudices. That said it is better that we keep them within ourselves, and out of the war-gaming boards. Of course it is better if we resist them, but ah well I sin on that front. But ones social milieu can help with that, or can foster the open feeding of our basest nature.

So yeah Mako11, I would prefer if we all kept our baser prejudices in check on these forums. And calling out, and sanctioning people when this happens is part of that.

In other words, the exact same issue as the old "Current Affairs" board.

Yup. Drop the false pretense and call it what it is, the return of the Current Affairs Board.

Agreed with Tango. We are grown ups. We need to know to control ourselves. I was intervening in a SCW thread, but when I realized that I was losing my ( usually do that to me) I stopped. The problem is not the UM boards. The problem is that we are becoming over-sensitive and can't accept a lively discussion for what it is: a storm in a teacup.

I would understand nuke threads where racism, violence against the weak or slavery are being defended. Otherwise, and regardless how much some people annoys me, I am totally for open discussion.

+1 Mako11 & Basileus66.

Drop the false pretense and call it what it is, the return of the Current Affairs Board.

That's quite an exaggeration.

How is Ultramodern different from Current Affairs?
Inquiring minds want to know. I see no difference.

The old Current Affairs board was wide open to politics and current elections.

Are 90+% of the topics not simply current affairs?

Well I'd certainly like to thank all of those that posted positively on the "Free L4" thread Tango started. Quite a surprise as all the positive comments.

But Of course for the detractors … Hey … even George Washington and Abe Lincoln had detractors … LOL !

So many thanks again to all those that supported Tango in my release and return effort. I am humbled by many of the generous, considerate, etc., comments …

Off with his head!

Didn't the Queen of Hearts say that to Alice ? Well … it was "Off with her head" , IIRC …

had posts of worth on the gaming boards

I was amazed at the positive posts in that light. But yes, I do post on a number of boards here. To some here's dismay it appears !

such tripe,

Don't like tripe, liver, kidneys or heart … especially heart. But far be it from me to tell anyone what to eat … What anyone puts in their mouth is not my concern.

I'm a pragmatist.

Me too ! But I never see you at any of the meetings ?

linked to disinfecting the source of the rot.

When you say it that way … it sounds kind'a dirty !

giving a repeat shoplifter a life sentence

Only a shoplifter ?!? I'd think at least a Grand Theft Auto charge or Jewel thief ?

He is a staple

I'd think I'd rather be a nail gun … if given the option.

I would exchange 100 Legion 4s and Irish Marines with one Kyoteblue.

Heavens No ! 100 L4s & 100 IMs could cut a broad swath of destruction, mayhem and Chaos ! But it appear we were only issued – 1 each, OD in color. And I do agree I would like to see Kyote back. He & I email frequently. He really does not have any big problem with me. He seems to at least see, where I'm coming from. I told him you mentioned him.

I am going to say, that I may had been too hard on Legion.

I do appreciate your comment on this post. Thank you, and I hope we can have a better open dialogue in the future.

There are not the forums… it's about people performance… not far away many people with torches claim that Napoleon Forum has to go too…

Don't forget the pitch forks, they always have torches and pitch forks. I'm seen it too many and directed towards … me ! Yikes !!!!

That's the best argument for freeing Legion 4 that anyone's come up with so far.

Well I've listed that as a "Not really sure" or " A possibe maybe. But at least the post include "Free Legion 4" … so I won't count it as a No vote …

Legion 4's biggest problem is his compulsion to take the troll bait.

Well … I'd say more like All U can eat Buffets and Desert Bars. But I do appreciate you supporting my release and return.

I imagine if people learned to keep it in their pants

That would solve many, many, many "problems" worldwide I'd think.

Welcome back, Ralph!

Well I'd certainly like to thank all of those that posted positively on the "Free L4" thread

My pleasure.

Now that you won't be appearing on the UM boards, to put a fly in the jam pot, I predict our former warm friendship will be re-established. I look forward to your posts on gaming, which is why we're all here….in theory at least.

Now let me look at the other side of page.

Good news, Comedy value will be maintained and Frothers will continue to have a deep vein of material to mine :)

The simple fact that you even mentioned "somethings" there, speaks volumes about you. I gave your comments little credence previously. But now since you find some perverse "humor" as it appears you do plus support those sort of "things" … your validity has become 0 … actually sub-zero.

Like another old bearded fat man. I too make a list and check it twice. And note … I've posted no emoji, emoticon, little "smilies". I'm not laughing … not at all. With your flippant, insulting comments, whatever good natured humorous retort I could of had towards you is long gone.

Page 2 …

Oh great, so that means Deleted by Moderator threads will now spill onto the other boards.

As soon as I saw your remark I let Bill know. You should be smart enough to know you shouldn't say things like that on TMP.

At least I can turn UM off, I don't really want to have to turn off Modern and Cold War as well.

Well I do frequent those boards and even served in the Cold War. So if you find me that distasteful. You may want to turn those boards off as well.

But as you know there are many, many other boards here you could go to. I think you may like this one. TMP link

Now let me look at the other side of page.

Good news, Comedy value will be maintained and Frothers will continue to have a deep vein of material to mine :)
The simple fact(and I Do mean simple) that you even mentioned "somethings" there, speaks volumes about you. I gave your comments little credence previously. But now since you find some perverse "humor" as it appears plus you do and support those sort of "things" … your validity has become 0 … actually sub-zero.

Like another old bearded fat man. I too make a list and check it twice. And note … I've posted no emoji, emoticon, little "smilies". I'm not laughing … not at all. With your flippant, insulting comment whatever, good natured humorous retort I could of had towards you and your "kind" is long gone.

You refer to David Manley, Ralph. I believe David wrote this with TMP's best interests at heart. I haven't been near Frothers for several years but I gather they comment on what happens here. Still? Wouldn't it be good if TMP didn't provide the nay-sayers with any ammunition? No dodgy comments about women, or minorities or advocating genocide? No racism or bigotry? Homophobia??

I think your reaction is a little mean-spirited. Not to mention I think it behooves us all to accept criticism & use it to improve ourselves. Bill clearly allows TMP Talk for similar reasons.

Be the Bigger Man, Ralph!

You refer to David Manley, Ralph. I believe David wrote this with TMP's best interests at heart.,

Good for him …

I haven't been near Frothers for several years but I gather they comment on what happens here.

I'm well aware those who have been thrown off TMP, gather there. They have nothing to say that interests me.

Wouldn't it be good if TMP didn't provide the nay-sayers with any ammunition?

I think those types have all the ammo they need.

No dodgy comments about women, or minorities or advocating genocide? No racism or bigotry?

Unless I missed something nothing I just posted nothing to do with those topics ?

I think your reaction is a little mean-spirited.

That was far for my "a little mean spirited" mode.

Not to mention I think it behooves us all to accept criticism & use it to improve ourselves. Bill clearly allows TMP Talk for similar reasons.

I was not trying to improve myself … I was replying to comments I found insulting and demeaning, etc., … That goes both ways. If someone makes it a point to purposely step on my toes … I respond in kind.

Be the Bigger Man, Ralph!

I am ! I weigh in at about 285. And albeit I'm now crippled I can still handle myself. Especially in a verbal volleyball game over the net. Where no one can really get hurt. As opposed to face to face …

That went well, I think.

285 pound? 20 stone? You're joking. That's nearly twice what I weigh. I'm 6/2 & I look after myself. I wouldn't go near an "all you can eat buffet" & neither should you. You need to look after yourself, man.

Check this out:

link

Dawghouse must feature some good eatin'.

Dawghouse must feature some good eatin'.

I've always thought it may come down to this:
link

Look on the bright side!

L4, you obviously missed my comment many months ago where I mentioned that I – as do many readers here, including Bill – have a quick look at Frothers to see what the latest drama is over here. No matter, I value your thoughts on this as much as you do mine :)

Actually my last comment isnt quite correct- "But now since you find some perverse "humor" as it appears you do plus support those sort of "things" … your validity"

My thoughts re humour value relate to happenings here rather than elsewhere. Whilst there are occasional witty moments over there they are few and far between

As the kiddies say:
Wow.
Just..
Wow.

Ok, first off let me say that I have nothing against Legion 4 as a person. He's always been polite and personable with me on the occasions I've interacted with him. I'm not a hand wringing SJW who wants to try to police the language of others. I don't check under the bed every night before retiring to make sure there are no scary racist/bigoted/evil monsters hiding under there to grab me when I shut my eyes. Likewise, I'm not the tiresome sort who attempts to shut down opinions they disagree with by throwing out scary sounding, but essentially meaningless buzzwords like racist, bigot, warmonger, mean old poo-poo head, etc. So the content of his material does not overly upset me. Like most people here, I agree with some of his opinions and disagree with others.

That being said, what do you do when the usual methods of keeping order are not working? What can you say about someone who has been sanctioned for rule breaking dozens of times without effect? What do you do when someone literally spends more time in the Dog House than out? You have to come to the conclusion that the person in question cannot or will not behave themselves and harsher action has to be initiated.

The Dog House is not doing it's intended job of reducing misbehavior by giving rules breakers a "time out" to reflect what they did wrong. As I (and others) have pointed out in the past, the Dog House has no bite. Rules that are not enforced become a mockery.

Bill was right in locking Legion 4's account and he made a mistake by allowing people to talk him into reversing his decision. The guy has shown that he simply cannot follow the simple and clearly stated rules of the site. To make matters worse, he is given a reprieve by Bill and literally within minutes he's back to his usual behavior and ends up being DH'd yet again. I'd take that as a personal slap in the face were I in Bill's shoes.

Sorry, Legion 4. You need to go. In keeping with the previous dog metaphor, this puppy simply cannot be housebroken, so he needs to go back to the pound. ;-)

But what do I know?

Well said Martin.

What Trench Raider said!

Listen to Martin.
Martin's always right! (wing) ;-)

Ah well. I doubt it will do any good. But I felt it had to be said.

How many times have you been locked Martin? Or your alternative accounts?
Me? Just once. Oh wait. That was my "other" Sybil personality.

LOL

I used to get locked up fairly often. Bill banned me. It lasted c. a year. Months later, he mistook my reinstatement for "sneakin'" and locked my account. We communicated and it's been smooth sailing since.

My take: Bill is a forgiving man, but don't push it.

The Dawg Haus is a perverse badge of honor to those who frequent it. That mindset destroys any anti-recidivism intent it is supposed to apply. So I would just get rid of the DH.

Here's the other thing I would do, if I were Bill: banning for politics and religion, even accusations of being "racist" and the rest, would get an automatic suspension to the Bluey Fezzy. Yes, I would make the Bluey Fezzy take the place of the DH. "Over there", people can discuss anything. The filter "bleeps" out all foul verbiage, just like on TMP (and Plus). After a spell in the Bluey Fezzy (which would benefit from the added denizens, and maybe even create a few "converts"), Bill could reinstate full privileges, or not, depending.

Btw, I have never seen anything banning-worthy from either Irish or Ralph. So I am glad that that was overturned.

The Dawg Haus is a perverse badge of honor to those who frequent it. That mindset destroys any anti-recidivism intent it is supposed to apply. So I would just get rid of the DH.

Agreed.
When a punishment becomes a joke, it loses any deterrent effect. Lord knows I've seen this applying in the real world many times.

Here's the other thing I would do, if I were Bill: banning for politics and religion, even accusations of being "racist" and the rest

Yeah, I have always thought that was a good idea: Banning accusations of "racism" and similar "shut up words". If you think about it, it makes sense. It's rather like how accusations of being a troll or comparing someone to being a Nazi is already banned. Aside from most often being baseless, such accusations usually never lead anywhere productive and prompt little more than a "Yes you are!" "No I'm not!" sort of exchange. A good case could be made that it falls under the prohibition on personal attacks as well.

I say ban calling someone a "racist" or accusing a post of being "racist" and you cut out much of griping. If someone honestly feels that something is "racist" (whatever that might mean), then they can use the tools available and push the "report" button on the naughty post. Let the staff deal with it at that point. It's far preferable than allowing folks to disrupt the flow of the discussion with their need to social signal what kind of "valiant and pure" SJW they are in standing up to the mean ol' poo-poo heads! ;-)

But as always, what do I know?

So you're in favour of safe spaces then?

We have a resolution to Legion's situation.
I'm not sure why Martin feels the need to grave dance on it.

I'm not a fan of Legions views on politics and we've crossed virtual swords before but I am much MUCH less a fan of this temptation to stick the boot into him while he can't defend himself.

I say ban calling someone a "racist" or accusing a post of being "racist" and you cut out much of griping. If someone honestly feels that something is "racist" (whatever that might mean), then they can use the tools available and push the "report" button on the naughty post. Let the staff deal with it at that point.

I'm sure it was inadvertent on your part but that sounds like just the kind of morally bankrupt argument a racist might put forward.

Surely we all agree that racism is wrong? Therefore if someone is making racist comments we should call them on it. Sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe. You can't just leave it to the 'staff'.

Legion 4 has only 7 more days in the DH, Martin.
So take advantage of it while you can!

Weasel:

So you're in favour of safe spaces then?

Heh.
I see what you're trying to do there. Sadly, it's not a good comparison.
Is the rule against accusing a member of trolling an attempt to create a "safe space"? No? How about the rule barring comparing other people to the Nazis? Is the intent of that rule to create a "safe space"?
Of course not. The intent of those rules is to prevent arguments. Likewise a proposed ban on accusing other TMPers of "racism" is an attempt to cut down on arguments and forum disorder.

I am much MUCH less a fan of this temptation to stick the boot into him while he can't defend himself.

I find it amazing that you think I'm only raising the concern because he's currently in the Dog House and thus can't speak for himself at the moment. You've known me for quite a long time. Have you ever known me to shy away from expressing my opinion?

In any event, I'm not going anywhere. If Legion 4 disagrees with my view, he is welcome to speak to me about it in a few days. Sadly, if he stays true to form, he'll loose it again, trash talk me, and wind up in the Dog House within a few minutes of being released.

SJDonovan:

I'm sure it was inadvertent on your part but that sounds like just the kind of morally bankrupt argument a racist might put forward.

So it's morally bankrupt to want to cut down on the arguments and back and forth "Yes you are!" "No I'm not!" sort of exchanges. Accusations of supposed "racism" are behind more than a few DHings. I regret that you don't see this as a problem that needs to be solved….

Surely we all agree that racism is wrong?

Of course.

Therefore if someone is making racist comments we should call them on it. Sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe. You can't just leave it to the 'staff'.

I don't know about you, but I can stand up for what I believe and do the right thing without feeling the need to social signal to all my buddies "Hey! Look at me! I'm a good person! I'm fighting against this evil baby eating racist monster! I have the courage of my convictions!" What is it they say? Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking? Yes, it's a cliché, but it certainly applies.

Look, you are given the tools to deal with any "racism" you might see: that little report button. Why not use it and not cause a disruption of the forum by throwing around accusations? When you see someone breaking another forum rule, (say talking politics for example) do you bang out an angry post telling them "Leave off the political talk, you horrible monster!!11!! This is a wargames site!". No. Of course not. You hit the button and call for a clean up. It should be the same with supposed "racism".

But as always, what do I know? ;-)

I don't really see why you feel it is morally better to inform on someone in secret than confront them in person. If you are going to press the button on someone I think you owe it to them to tell them why you are doing it.

However, it is good to know that you are out there doing the right thing when nobody is watching.

You've probably had little experience with the Law so are unused to the concept that not only should justice be done, it must be seen to be done. A system of clandestine narks would not further the cause of fairness & equality. I'm not sure how you define being an informer as being an example of "character".

Donovan has it right. A democracy asks for the involvement of its citizens not the fascist-like subservience to Authority. I believe Bill, like yourself an opponent to racism et al does not object to perpetrators being called out.

Sorry, do I have this right..

You are in favour of banning people from describing statements as 'racist' – because the only reason they might do this is to demonstrate their own moral superiority?

I have to say that's quite an interesting perspective.

Personally I believe it's important to not walk on by when you see something wrong. I'm sure you're familiar with Niemoller. By not responding publicly, you create an atmosphere where the casual observer might believe it is a site where it is acceptable to say those things publicly without being challenged, which would be a terrible slur on the site and members. If they are subsequently moderated, how is anyone to know that? Bill can't be everywhere.

Dear JJ

Please contact me at sigurd@eclipse.net. I found what you were looking for. I'd contact you in the dawghouse but I am not a supporting member any more.

But as always, what do I know? ;-)

On that we can all agree.

I'm the meantime, continue to do what you do best. Attack someone in the DH and unable to reply, and brag about reporting people for real or imaginary indiscretions. Hey. Some of them may pan out!
Don't bother reporting this as a "personal attack". By the time you read this, I'll have already brought it to Dear Editor's attention.

not only should justice be done, it must be seen to be done.

and

By not responding publicly, you create an atmosphere where the casual observer might believe it is a site where it is acceptable to say those things publicly without being challenged, which would be a terrible slur on the site and members. If they are subsequently moderated, how is anyone to know that?

We already have that here.
If a rule breaking post disappears or has the offensive content snipped and the offender then shows up in the DH with the stated reason being for his misbehavior, then justice is seen to be done. And it's with a minimum of disruption.

Sorry, do I have this right..

You are in favour of banning people from describing statements as 'racist' – because the only reason they might do this is to demonstrate their own moral superiority?

No, you don't.
I'm in favor of a ban on accusations of "racism" due to the negative effect it has upon the order of the forum. Given the extremely subjective nature of what the actual definition of the concept is and the widespread misuse of such accusations by those attempting to shut down speech they disagree with, many people get understandably irritated when someone levels such charges at them. This has often in the past led to extended back and forth spats, derailing of forum discussion, and unnecessary dog housing. Don't you see that as a problem? Don't believe me? Ask Legion 4 (when he returns) how many of his DH stays have been caused by his replying to those who accuse him of "racism".

As for reasons someone might publicly accuse another member of being a "racist", yes, I do feel a large amount of it is motivated by self-righteousness and a desire to social signal. It's certainly not the only reason of course. But given how few of these accusations are, upon actual examination, valid those motives certainly reflect a good number of cases.

Personally I believe it's important to not walk on by when you see something wrong

Then hit the report button. Use the tools that have been made available for such occasions. If you read the FAQ, the Editor states in many places that one should report offensive posts and rules violations rather than attempt to engage the problem poster. By trying to shout down the person you disagree with by calling them names, you have contributed to the problem rather than done your part to see that offensive content is removed.

Bill can't be everywhere.

Exactly.
That's why he has placed those handy little report buttons to alert him to problems.

Anyway, that's all I'll say here on the matter. This is an off topic side discussion as it has nothing to do with the actual subject of the thread. I was just replying to a comment made by another member above. I may type up a poll proposal and submit it to the appropriate forum. If so, we can continue to discuss this there.

@ Wolverton
You seem to be tying yourself into rhetorical knots to defend the indefensible.

Advocating a system of informing would lower the high tone of TMP.

Here's some reading to show you the general miasma informers are held in:
link

Again, I'll refer to the Law. You may not have any first hand experience with law & order but I can assure you that even if the police use informers, they are despised & distrusted & in a court room a barrister will almost certainly attack their clandestine activities on moral grounds.

Always, always, as Hugh Latimer urged us, "While you live, tell the truth and shame the Devil!"

Ask Legion 4 (when he returns) how many of his DH stays have been caused by his replying to those who accuse him of "racism".

No, you are wrong. Ralph's predilection for making outrageous statements about Muslims et al is the root cause. I believe in the integrity of standing up to what you believe in.

I will remind you of what Aristotle wrote in his 'Metaphysics'( a book if you haven't read, you should): "To say of what is that it is not, or of what is not that it is, is false, while to say of what is that it is, and of what is not that it is not, is true".

Ochoin, you have such a way with words, even if they're Aristotle's :-)

Unfortunately, Matthew 7:6 springs to mind…