"Waterloo 1815 1/72 Napoleonic French Foot Dragoons" Topic

Sounds like this will be released this year.
Looks like a very promising set!

facebook.com/waterloo1815plasticsoldiers/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED&fref=nf
flickr.com/photos/37119735@N07/sets/72157679487611385

Interesting

Some good skirmish poses being shown, along with marching, so these could be a good set to get if the price and quality are good. Looking forward to seeing these finished

Hmm – useful(and nice) – wonder if they will do them in 1/32 as well?

Just to clarify Waterloo 1815 is the title of the website and creator. These figures are obviously earlier, the suggestion seems to be for the Peninsula.

I do love the posing of the crouching figure, with the bayonet fixed, plus the officer. Great animation

@deadhead,

Thanks for the clarification. I was about to pounce on the idea of dismounted dragoons at Waterloo.

Oh there were plenty of them…

and dismounted cuirassiers, carabiniers and lancers etc…..

They were the lucky ones, if still on their feet. But I doubt they were thinking about advancing with fixed bayonets.

They had greater priorities, including survival…..

Do them in 1/32 as well? -- that would be grand!

Very little is getting made in 1/32 at the moment, so I am not sure how realistic that wish is, it it never hurts to hope.

And yes, the manufacturer's name is confusing at times, especially when googling to find info. But a good development – even if really only suitable for 1805

There must have been lots of dismounted dragoon action in the Peninsula, surely?

But the likelihood is that then they would have first got off their horses…..then do something skirmishy, as light infantry, and then ride on.

So, they would have been in the riding boots (as Perry Dragoons)not the gaiters as here.

Good point.

So the Army of England they are.

Did they often get off their horse to skirmish in the Peninsula then? That's interesting. I imagined they would generally stay mounted and fire from the horse. I have seen pics of mounted skirmishers.

I guess an officer could have gathered some together in small unit actions, but I imagine they were not trained as foot soldiers.

Be interested in hearing more.

And riding boots would be difficult to skirmish in I would imagine.

Imagine a bunch of dragoons move into a village…..what is the first thing they will do if they wish to search/occupy it?

That was what I meant by the skirmish thing.

and even then, if they were wanting to exchange fire in the open, their firearms would be a bit (a bit) more accurate once dismounted. So one horse holder and the rest can blaze away.

and those boots would have been murder to walk in……

I think that dragoons may well have retained gaiters for discharging tasks on foot, e.g. in garrisons, till the end of the Empire, for which there is some contemporary evidence.

A plate edited by Barthel, a maker of paper soldiers active in Strasbourg during the Empire, shows dragoons on foot, wearing gaiters and Bardin style coats. To judge from the epaulets, they are belonging to the elite company of a dragoon regiment and, in accordance with the 1812 regulations, they wear helmets instead of bearskin caps. Drummers are also present. The only surprising element is the standard which is of the 1804 pattern. However, as far as I know, the old patterns were not destroyed when the new models were issued but usually were stored in the regimental depots, so may have been on hand when needed. From Jean-Pierre Klein, Les petits soldats de Strasbourg, p.49:

What we see here may be the "colour-party" of a dragoon regiment present at Strasbourg in 1813 or 1814. Perhaps, a regiment even whose depot was located at Strasbourg?

Strasbourg makers of paper soldiers are well known to have modelled their toys on troops garrisoned in the city, and the presence of dragoons in Strasbourg at the end of the Empire is well attested e.g. by Georges Kastner, the author of the "Manuel Général de Musique Militaire" (published in 1848) who mentions that when he was very young, "vers la fin de l'empire", he had seen the 19th dragoons returning to Strasbourg from battle, together with their regimental band, and "supplementary" band.

The passage is well worth quoting in full ("Manuel…", p.170):

"On avait aussi donné aux régiments de cavalerie, indépendamment de la musique qui leur était spécialement affectée, une musique un peu moins nombreuse, mais organisée de la même manière que celle de l'infanterie. Cette musique, qui d'abord ne devait jouer que dans les moments de repos, soit aux manoeuvres, soit à la parade, fut quelquefois admise ensuite à figurer dans d'autres circonstances. Vers la fin de l'empire, bien que nous fussions alors fort jeune, nous nous souvenons parfaitement d'avoir vu le 19e dragons rentrer après combat à Strasbourg, avec sa musique de corps, et sa musique supplémentaire, dans laquelle on remarquait, portée à cheval, à l'un des côtés de la selle, la volumineuse grosse caisse."

Note: First, the band had been in the field, together with the regiment, apparently fulfilling its role as bandsmen playing music (not corpsmen, or the like). Second, even in 1813/14, substantial bands continued to be employed by the regiments, which emphasizes that they were not considered a luxury even in strained situations but, quite obviously, a necessity to maintain the morale of the troops.

Hmmm, Liam, I am not convinced. Dragoons were cavalry of the line. If they were to dismount, what about the chasseur a cheval. Yet we often talk on TMP of foot dragoons

Is that a historical thing, or an Auaterlitz carry over?

I am sure that is right, that heavy cavalry would be seen in gaiters for dismounted duty…even cuirassiers. The two on the right are late uniform and helmets indeed

But they would all go into action mounted and, if they had to fight on foot, they are surely stuck with their big boots.
Cavalry were too expensive to routinely waste as infantry, unless you were a bit short on horseflesh. Was it not only by ACW that modern firearms forced them to become highly mobile light infantry rather that the shock troops "Queen of The Battlefield"

I am sure that is right, that heavy cavalry would be seen in gaiters for dismounted duty…even cuirassiers. The two on the right are late uniform and helmets indeed

An interesting Suhr plate representing dismounted cuirassiers in Hamburg in 1813, one of them wearing gaiters:

Yup, that's my point. I think "we" have the notion that dragoons were once mounted infantry, but by Naps time I fear that they were only trained as horsemen. So maybe they would occasionally skirmish, but I wonder if to a level of historical significance that would merit using such figures (as per the OP) in any period except 1805.

And this stems from a bad childhood experience , where my brother dashed his hussars forward (Airfix, natch!) and occupied the farm (La Haye Saint of course) and dismounted them to shoot. Dashed effective I recall…

And I am not convinced by pictures of them parading either – I am talking actual battlefield skirmishing

I think "we" have the notion that dragoons were once mounted infantry, but by Naps time I fear that they were only trained as horsemen.

No. They were trained for both combat on horse and combat on foot, called "service mixte" in the regulations, throughout the Empire.

"Les dragons étant déstinés à mettre pied à terre et à combattre comme l'infanterie, il convient de rapprocher le plus possible leur formation en bataille à cheval de celle qu'ils doivent avoir à pied."

Quoted from the work mentioned below, p.85. There you'll find everything about the ordinary training for the cavalry and the somewhat different training for dragoons:

link

As for boots or gaiters in the field: Evidently, after the abolishment of regular foot dragoon regiments, dragoons would have worn boots only when in action, no gaiters, regardless of whether they fought mounted or dismounted (actually, they were trained to constantly change from one technique to the other). However, e.g. on garrison duty or when marching through friendly territory without horses (which could happen when the mounts assigned to them were not yet available for some reason), they could also wear gaiters as shown e.g. by Barthel. Can't see a problem or contradiction here.

So, if the Waterloo 1815 foot dragoons were meant to be used for the Peninsular campaigns only, the marching poses would make sense e.g. for garrisoned troops but the fighting poses would not make sense for troops in action. The latter would work for the 1805-1806 period only.

Interesting. But I am not sure I follow your last paragraph

Thanks

But I am not sure I follow your last paragraph

Sorry, I didn't realize you hadn't noticed…

That's what Mr Pierini (Waterloo 1815) writes on Facebook:

"Qui potete vedere le sculture di un nuovo soggetto previsto per il 2017: French dragoons (dismounted), Peninsular Campaign.
E' il periodo del quadro di Goya, quello con la fucilazione. I dragoni venivano usati soprattutto come forze di polizia e pattugliamento: c'era una forte attività di guerriglia, diciamo "partigiana" "

deadhead has alluded to that remark already (see above):

Just to clarify Waterloo 1815 is the title of the website and creator. These figures are obviously earlier, the suggestion seems to be for the Peninsula.

To be fair
It is confusing…..

The manufacturer has a daft title. He/she calls themselves "Waterloo1815" but produces (great) stuff nothing to do with that period. It is probably what sells!

He could produce Finnish Mameluke Paratroops on Skis for the Winter War 1939/40, but the message would be entitled…

"Waterloo 1815 1/72 Finnish Mamelukes Paras etc"…

and someone would surely say…"but there were no…"

and then you would have one hundred more postings, from perfectly pleasant and helpful individuals, if you do exchange with them personally, who have very respectable credentials as professional historians, then swapping abuse.

My problem is the gaiters. That I can live with. But white or black? June, but it does look like rain……..heck, by 1815 they were all in overalls anyway, but looks bad

No, sorry

You said "So, if the Waterloo 1815 foot dragoons were meant to be used for the Peninsular campaigns only, the marching poses would make sense e.g. for garrisoned troops but the fighting poses would not make sense for troops in action. The latter would work for the 1805-1806 period only.

It is the "fighting poses would not make sense for troops in action". I must be being stupid but that just doesn't make sense yet. I sense it is just an inter-webby communication thingie, and I really am interested in understanding your comments with these troops

Or are you saying, because they have gaiters (the skirmish poses) they can only be 1805 because after that period they would only have riding boots when in combat. Whereas IF they were marching around town I. 1813 they would wear gaiters?

And yes, being a plastics 1/72 fan, I am fully aware of Waterloo1815 as a brand

Apparently a real problem of communication here, I give up.

Sorry. It must be me, so my apologies. thanks for trying and keeping your good humour

Plastics folk are different…….

Marc that is exactly what he is saying.

It is like this. If you intend to go into action on foot, you will wear gaiters. There was a time when dragoons did that, because they were missing the one thing that true cavalry need, horses.

After that, they had horses. There has been a massive investment in training and kitting them out. Despite their title…let's be honest…they are just doing cavalry jobs. You would be crazy to do anything else with them….even you know who would not sign off on that. I mean Napoleon of course, not anyone more contemporary…

Cavalry …..Mobility, scouting, recce, pursuit, protecting own lines of communication and converse. Very rarely, a role in a pitched battle. Big boots…very big boots.

But think about it. A dozen dragoons, true cavalry, approach an "empty" village, in Spain, on a recce. They will surely finally dismount. Hard to drive your horse into a little hacienda…

You still have your big boots on, as you suddenly walk into Sean Bean and his lads.

Phew

And lucky for me as I have a nice collection of 1805-1807 Naps, bicornes, mirlitons, Busch plumes etc. And now I can raise some foot dragoons

@Marc

Let me try a last time:

Waterloo 1815 say their foot dragoons are intended for the Peninsula campaign. However, at that time dragoons were mounted when in the field and always wore boots, regardless of whether they fought on horse or on foot.

On the other hand, dragoons might have worn gaiters instead of boots when fulfilling garrison duties on foot. So, you might well have seen dismounted dragoons in gaiters in the Peninsula walking or marching through an occupied and "secure" town.

As all Waterloo 1815 foot dragoons wear gaiters, they would not be suited for representing dragoons in the field as these would have been equipped with boots. So the manufacturer has missed the mark in this respect.

If, however, you want to represent a party of dragoons marching through a "secure" town, you could use at least the marching foot dragoon poses.

You could even use the firing and skirmishing poses but to a very limited extent only, in my opinion. E.g., if you wish to show a party of dragoons in gaiters walking through a town being attacked by insurgents or guerilla fighters in the midst of a "secure" town. Of course, in such a situation, the dragoons would defend themselves as they are, i.e. in gaiters.

To sum up, in my opinion, the Waterloo 1815 foot dragoons seem to be only partially useful for the Peninsula War, they would be much better suited for the 1805 and 1806 campaigns in Germany where actual regiments of foot dragoons had been formed that were equipped with gaiters and would have worn gaiters both in garrison and in the field.

Geddit?

@deadhead

Just to make that clear again. Dragoons were always trained on a regular basis to fight both mounted and dismounted, even after the abolishment of the foot dragoon regiments. This was not a random affair. The regulations linked above remained valid throughout the Empire. They include instructions as to how the off-on-horse manoeuvres had to take place as well as the orders that had to be given on such occasion. See pp.223ff. ("Pied à terre des dragons pour combattre"), 439ff. ("INSTRUCTION pour les régimens de dragons sur la manière de conduire les chevaux haut le-pied.").

"It is like this. If you intend to go into action on foot, you will wear gaiters. There was a time when dragoons did that, because they were missing the one thing that true cavalry need, horses."

Would depend on the tactical circumstances, when they had to dismount and then form a skirmishing line – they would keep their boots on.

As Scharnachthal says on foot duties in garrison – gaiters.

In 1805 it was the only time when foot dragoons were formed into semi permanent infantry units, in battalions and in the end into a division – because initially they should be been mounted in England when capturing horses (Originally they were organised for the invasion of England)- they did not only wore gaiters but also a back pack.

the funny story is, that often the expertise horsemen found themselves in the foot unit and the conscripts on horse.

Thanks guys – all appreciated.

The back packs are the best clue then – and the W1815 range have packs I understand, so probably most clearly intended for 1805

and the W1815 range have packs I understand, so probably most clearly intended for 1805

No, Marc, not "intended for 1805". On their Facebook page they clearly say intended for the Peninsular War:

"French dragoons (dismounted), Peninsular Campaign.
E' il periodo del quadro di Goya, quello con la fucilazione. I dragoni venivano usati soprattutto come forze di polizia e pattugliamento: c'era una forte attività di guerriglia, diciamo "partigiana" "

And that's exactly what's "wrong" about them…

In 1805…they did not only wore gaiters but also a back pack.

and the W1815 range have packs

Silly me, yes. So, I was still far too optimistic when thinking about possible uses for these dragoons in the Peninsula. Actually, they are of no use at all for this theatre of war.

Well, good bait catches fine fish. I can imagine that in Waterloo 1815's mind the bait's name is "Peninsular Campaign" and the fine fish are the Brits (fond of everything about the Peninsular War). Hey, they could easily announce that their foot dragoons are for the campaigns in Germany in 1805/06, but then…

Ok, so 1805 it is. Suits me – helps me build my early war forces a shade more accurately.

As a Brit, with little or no interest in the Peninsular Wars