"Black Powder - 28mm or 15mm" Topic

Looking to start out and quite like the look of Black Powder.

I've been trying to read up and have just about got my head around units being Large, Standard, Small or Tiny, that the number of figures on each and the actual frontage doesn't matter as long as it is obvious what size of unit is.

I was assuming I would go 15mm because

It would be cheaper
I could either match the 28mm (e.g. 2x2 on a base) or I could put more figures on the base to make it look more thematic.
I could match the 28mm base sizes or make them smaller
I could make the play area smaller or have bigger battles in the 28mm play area
Quicker to paint as there would be less detail

But most of all I thought it would be cheaper, a lot cheaper meaning lower price or more figures on the bases.

But shock horror, it isn't cheaper at all. A single 15mm metal figure and a single 28mm plastic are about the same price.

There are some advantages to 28mm too

Match the black powder rules
Look better, more detail, better moulding, better anatomy
More readily available – sold off the shelf rather than being made to order

So unsure what way to go now – what do you guys think?

Cheers,

Nigel

Nigel,

Cant really comment specifically on Black Powder basing. I do have a copy but I prefer other rules. But with respect to 15mm or 28mm can I make the comment that the cost of the figure is not actually the big investment. Its your time to paint them that is the biggest investment. Or if you pay someone to paint them for you then that cost is way above the cost of the figures.

So, I don't doubt that you've discovered the cost of metal 15/18mm and plastic 25/28mm is roughly the same, but try painting a few of each and find out which ones you can do faster. Everyone paints differently and some find 15/18mm quicker, some find 25/28mm quicker. What works fastest for you? Thats your biggest investment.

Welcome to Napoleonics, wonderful period to war-game and research, immensely rewarding.

Nick

One difference between metal figures and plastic figures is the time it takes to make them paint ready.

Metal figures are typically one piece and can be painted the same day you bought them with perhaps a little tidying up of the base.

Plastic figures tend to be multi-part and in some cases take several days to build up enough for a unit.

The painting time for either is much the same depending on the quality of finish you are after.

The other thing you may want to consider is your playing group. What do they collect?

That all would depend on my table size….mine is 4x3 soooo…

I have lots of both scales. My 15/18s are for fighting big battles. Originally based for Shako and Shako 2, I've had many an enjoyable battle.
The new 28s are very attractive and I mostly use them for skirmish games. The plastic ones are fun to put together. I enjoy the modelling aspect of our hobby and have spent many hours assembling different units. Kind of like the old Warhammer days when you modeled the figures to fit into a unique unit. My 28s have grown into a large force, capable of medium size battles now. But it has taken years…
I really like both, but the plastic 28s are a blast.

Some good comments already.

a) Plastic 28mm: you need to assemble them (althougth are ready to go, I noticed recently).
I have been assembling WWII plastic Russian lately, let me tell you that the next ones are all metal… :/

b) Now 28mm, takes a lot more time to paint than 15mm, basically count 4x15mm = 1x28mm

c)I was looking at BP that I have enjoyed quite a lot playing with friends. However, I have decided to do DBN for the time being, in 15mm. Several reasons for that. DBN can give you full armies with only 12 bases and 4 figures at most per base. In two weeks I can paint everything while it will take me 2 months to paint the same amount of figures in 28mm. Having said that, the amount of figures for BP is a lot bigger than what I need to play DBN.

Again, I have nothing against 28mm, I paint a lot of them for Bolt Action. But for Napoleonics, the more is not necessarily the better (for me). The thought of painting 24 figures in march pose for _ONE_ unit (and you will need a lot of them) kind of put me in depression even without touching a brush…

Thanks, I think painting is the key point for me.

Assembly doesn't phase me as I have a lot of plastic modelling under my belt and it is easier to clean up.

The problem, I suspect for me, is that I am a procrastinator and if detail is present I will try to paint it. This leads to research into what is actually correct and dis-satisfaction with my ability to paint that well.

There is also scenery, that hasn't been mentioned, I imagine it is much more accessible and affordable in 15mm.

Just a little disappointed with the price – I expected 15mm to be cheaper so hoping to put more figures on a base to make it look atmospheric.

So a question about 15mm basing. I have already said I understand that actual base sizes and figure content doesn't matter so what do you guys do.

Keep an infantry base as 2x2 but reduce it from a 40mm square to a 20-30 mm square?

For game measurements (such as range) do you just have the inches or use centimetres?

Cheers,

Nigel

Dare I suggest 1/72. My Naps are mostly plastic and I find they have let me build massive armies at sensible cost – prices range between £5.00 GBP and £10.00 GBP per box of approx 45 fits – the latest Strelets Poles I bought have 40 marching and four command and were £6.20 GBP – so about 16p each.

I base them on 15mm by 20mm per figure (which is old school 25mm figure standard) and use a 1:20 ratio. Modern 1/72 are sensibly posed compared to the mole diggers of Airfix.

And if you want to spend more, Franznap, Hagen and Art Miniaturen (amongst others) sell excellent metal figures.

1/72 would be good but what puts me off is that I believe that all the options available is made from flexible polythene type plastic. In my experience it is difficult to finish (remove seams and flash – it doesn't sand) and it doesn't hold paint well, falls off when the model bends.

Unless you know of any hard plastic 1/72.

Cheers,

Nigel

You could go 6mm…

4x6mm figures paint the same time as 1x15mm figure.

So basically, if you paint up a unit at 24 x 6mm figures (these bases look already good), it is like painting up 6x15mm minis.

Basically, when you finish one unit of 24 x 15mm figs, you can also finish 4 x6mm units.

So, after 3 units for BP in 15mm, you already have 12 units in 6mm. You can start playing…

6mm doesn't appeal to me. I do appreciate that the larger number of figures can make epic battles look more atmospheric but I want to see more detail in my figures. For me, 15-25 mm is the best compromise.

Cheers,

Nigel

The 15mm is cheaper if you go with a smaller base size. I've found that, at least with Old Glory 15's, I can get 6 figures (3 wide by 2 deep) on 1.25" square base (and sometimes on a 30mm square base, which is slightly smaller than 1.25"). So if you go for the usual 6 bases equals a normal-sized unit, you have 36 figures across a 7.5" frontage. You could play with the normal BP ranges\movement, or scale it down a bit by making 1 inch = 2 cm (so double all the ranges\move distances in BP but call it cm instead of inches). That gets you approx 20% reduction in scale.

In the UK 15mm metal is slightly more expensive than 28mm plastic.

So in your case a base of six 15mm would cost over 50% more than a base of four 28mm.

But that is the miniature cost, as others have said there are other costs like the time to paint and the available gaming space.

But if it is measured on money only 28mm plastic seems a little cheaper.

Cheers,

Nigel

The thought process for me goes like a series of investigative questions. Like CSI Black Powder:

1) What size miniatures do your friends use? If they are already well into 15mm, then 28mm is going to be less useful than 15mm.

2) Can you see well enough to paint 15mm? I had to stop all my 15mm projects and switch back to 28mm because my vision went bad all of a sudden.

3) I am certain there was a question 3) but it seems to have run away and hidden behind the refrigerator. I am not moving the refrigerator just to find a shy question.

4) Given the potential anguish of getting things just right on the 28mm models, do you really want to spend months or possibly even years digging into the evidence to make sure you get it just right?

5) Légion irlandaise is the coolest French battalion (and later, regiment.)

"Look better, more detail, better moulding, better anatomy"

Take a look at AB 18mm figures – you may change your view on your current thinking having seen them. Whilst they don't have more detail (they are about the same as many 28mm) for me they win in the other three categories you list. Detail takes time to paint and in sizes other than 28mm you can get away with leaving some of it off.

I always write the same thing to questions like this. Buy some samples across different sizes that you like and paint them. Go with whichever size you like painting the most as you will be spending hundreds and hundreds of hours painting them, assuming this is a DIY project.

Fighting 15s is the UK stockist. They have exceptionally good customer service and the figures will reach you very quickly, often within a few days.

I aleeady know about AB and agree with everything you say.

Of course that comes at a price – you can almost get two plastic 28mm for the price of one AB metal 15mm.

Cheers,

Nigel

I think the biggest problem you will find is table size 240mm frontage is a lot. That just 6 units bon a standard 6x4. Also can can be across that in 1 turn. Infantry if you roll low command.

We use 10mm and read as cm instead, frontage of 120, that'sconsistent with their slightly larger 45mm bases. You could do this with 15s, and get a table 2˝ times bigger.

I would have said go 6mm. But you've taken that option out.

I have 28mm. They look great but take up space. If I would do it again I'd go 15mm. Minifigs I think. Same size units (20-24 for normal unit) so it works out cheaper.

I think if you look around you'll find metal 15s are still cheaper than metal 28s.

I have many hundreds of metal 15mm, and I don't have the paitence to paint enough 28mm, so for me it will be 15's until I can't see well enough to paint.

That all being said if I had to start again, it would probably be 10mm.

I think many have already made some very good points but I'd just like to add my penny's worth as I am in a very similar position to yourself. I am starting Napoleonics from scratch and bought samples of several scales and painted them up. I found that whilst I enjoyed bringing the 28mm figures 'to life' my enthusiasm rapidly evaporated painting the smaller scales to a point where I had only painted 8 of the 15mm figures before deciding they were not for me. Now this is a totally personal thing – a lifelong gaming friend loves painting 15mm – but my point is that whichever scale of figure you choose, you are going to spend a great deal of time painting them so choose the scale you most enjoy painting. I would hate to see your army end up on Fleabay with barely a dozen painted!
Good luck!

I play in 15mm, it's more time efficient with regard painting and basing, you can have bigger armies on the table and the mass effect look is great.

I use 24 figure foot battalions, 4 bases of 6 40x30mm bases. Cavalry 12 figures, same size bases and artillery 40x40mm per gun.

Works great

Have 28mm and play Black Powder, although figures are based for Shako 2 as the club I attend has a lot of naps based this way. Advantage is less figures per unit than the recommended Black Power basing so more units from a box of plastics and more individual units can get on the table as they take up less room. Doesn't effect game play in our opinion.

I am probably going through what you are going through at the moment .
I enjoy building the 28mm plastic soldiers as its something I can do in the same room whilst the Mrs watches her favourite soaps and so it doesn't look like I am cutting her off. when you build these carefully I think you get rewarding with fantastic looking figures and some in poses whereby to do as a single metal casting would be difficult .
18mm such as the AB range are also very nice metal figures.

AS to which range or scale to choose is going to be a personal decision based on your own skills, time and money. Perhaps space and the scale your buddies collect will also need to be considered as well. The latter is assuming your only collecting one army.

I would guess at 28mm being perhaps the most complete scale as regards different troop types etc But on saying that new products are still being introduced.

Re. comparing plastic and metal costs in 15 and 28mm. It really depends on your choice of army and troop types. Provided there are suitable plastic kits around for your choice of army than 28mm can be cheaper. But….anything other than British of French will still be leaving you a lot of money to add artillery or cavalry to your Russian/Austrian/Prussian army. 28mm artillery and especially limbers don't come cheap.

FWIW We have played BP in both scales and on our normal sized tables it is much better in 15mm with all distances reduced by 1/2 or 2/3's depending on the period. In 28mm Napoleonics (especially) gives a very crowded and packed battlefield.

28mm great for skirmish or for games with huge tablespace, otherwise 15/10/6mm has to be the way to go. Depends what you want from your gaming.

28mm for me but base the figures on washers and then drop into sabot trays – that way you can use for a multiple number of rulesets.

Black Powder is easily modified for size of units

PLastic 28mm are always available for great prices on ebay whereas 15mm less so.

Personally painting 1 x 28mm figure is easier than a 15mm (eyesight) – if you want good wargames standard just block paint with one colour and then brush on the army painter strong dip. Once dry matt varnish.

From a terrain perspective you aren't going to need much for big battalion battles – a few tree, streams and a couple of building will suffice

Good Luck

PS having completed 700+ sized armies in 28mm for both ECW and Anglo Zulu War in last 18 months I am now starting on the Peninsular war.