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"Sad Day at TMP (Again)" Topic


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19,772 hits since 19 Jan 2017
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
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Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian20 Jan 2017 12:19 a.m. PST

For some mysterious reason, the original Sad Day at TMP topic has disappeared from the forum.

I modified two topics to fix a cache corruption problem we had during the day, one of which was the Sad Day topic, but it was fine when I left it! grin

I didn't want anyone to think that I was suppressing people from sharing their views, so here is a fresh topic for you.

Hellcat F6F Inactive Member20 Jan 2017 12:46 a.m. PST

Here's my view: what's so sad about it?

Bleeped text

sjwalker38 Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 12:51 a.m. PST

Unless you provide a link to the relevant 'From the Editor' post, I doubt that many readers, like Hellcat, will know what you are referring to?

Hellcat F6F Inactive Member20 Jan 2017 12:52 a.m. PST

Let's go, Bill. Put those feelings in check. The forum doesn't want to hear or care about your feelings. This is military history, not Oprah Winfrey. They can pay for their own flip-flops and raincoats. They're not that expensive. China sells them real cheap.

alien BLOODY HELL surfer20 Jan 2017 2:33 a.m. PST

mysterious indeed this new bug / topics disappearing glitch.

fantasque20 Jan 2017 2:48 a.m. PST

Its a TMP3.9999999 feature not a bug ;-)

Andrew Preziosi Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 3:34 a.m. PST

Abhs… if Bill had not brought this conversation back, I would have thought all these related conversations disappearing a conspiracy.

Thank you, Bill.

skippy0001 Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 4:21 a.m. PST

They will be missed. If you're the only one don't listen to criticism. Just fix one thing at a time.

Personal logo Flashman14 Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 5:07 a.m. PST

I'm over it.

rustymusket Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 5:54 a.m. PST

I am sorry to hear of it. Hopefully, things will improve for the future.I wish the editors well.

Personal logo Texas Jack Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 6:06 a.m. PST

It is always sad when people lose their jobs, and I hope the editors all land on their feet.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian20 Jan 2017 6:30 a.m. PST

Unless you provide a link to the relevant 'From the Editor' post, I doubt that many readers, like Hellcat, will know what you are referring to?

TMP link

Todd McLeister20 Jan 2017 6:37 a.m. PST

No part-time work for TMP they could do?

General Disaster20 Jan 2017 6:40 a.m. PST

It's a great shame to lose the editors, I hope they manage to find work to replace this.
On the other hand it will save Bill lot of money so the future of TMP should be safe now.

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 6:50 a.m. PST

For what it's worth I think you were correct to make a statement about this Bill. It is much clearer about what is happening and avoids a lot of "what has happened to the editors" post and queries.

Sad ? Well – it doesn't make me happy to hear about four people becoming unemployed. Again, for what it's worth I wish them well for the future.

daler240D Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 7:01 a.m. PST

Man, so some people actually went out of their way to post essentially "who cares" about people that work for TMP losing their job? Class acts…

Personal logo The Beast Rampant Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 7:31 a.m. PST

Not to mention that having to make such cuts in the first place is bad for the site itself.

You can crit-fail your empathy check and still understand that fact.

I didn't want anyone to think that I was suppressing people from sharing their views, so here is a fresh topic for you.

Thanks, Bill, you did have me worried there. grin I didn't feel that the original thread had gone off the rails, at least that I ever saw.

Rdfraf Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 7:42 a.m. PST

This is very sad.

Darkest Star Games Sponsoring Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 8:35 a.m. PST

I know you've grown close to them Bill, and they seem to be fine people so this must be very hard for you. All of my dealings with the Editors have been very positive and I wish them well in their futures. Hopefully the experience they have gained in your employ will be of great use.

Ragbones Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 8:36 a.m. PST

I appreciate all the work the Editors did and wish them well in their future endeavors.

Personal logo Who asked this joker Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 9:57 a.m. PST

It's an unfortunate duty of any business owner to make these tough decisions. Pretty sad stuff. I am sorry to see them go. Best of luck to them in all of their future endeavors.

Personal logo Lluis of Minairons Sponsoring Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 10:25 a.m. PST

It's an unfortunate duty of any business owner to make these tough decisions. Pretty sad stuff. I am sorry to see them go. Best of luck to them in all of their future endeavors.

I do agree.

Terrement Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 12:35 p.m. PST

OK, so what now Bill? Whatever they were doing you need to re-assume (I assume) doing, you had stated that you were taking a break from coding to do some painting, there are a number of threads including but not limited to the Rules Directly you've been actively churning, the bugs seem to still be lurking under the floor boards, and though you redefined what TMP 4.0 was from your earlier posts, there are still a lot of features that folks suggested a number of which you (at the time) thought would be easy enough to do. So your envisioned workload has just changed.

I'm wondering if the list of all of those previously submitted has been evaluated for which ones we could see first as being either easy to do or highly requested, which ones you've ruled out for whatever reason (coding issues, conflicts with other things that you are trying to do), whether you are still taking suggestions for upgrades to the page aside from what you recently defined as your upcoming builds.

If they are now OBE, that's fine. If you aren't taking new suggestions and aren't following up on old ones, that's fine too. If you are trying to do some of them and are also open to current input that might supercede the years old stuff even better.

I know I have a few items I'd like to see, and as nothing is difficult for the person who doesn't actually have to DO any of the work, they seem both logical, and easy, and I think others here might agree that they'd like to see them. I'm willing to be dollars to doughnuts that other folks here also have suggestions.

But I don't think any of us have a good feel for where we are and where we are going. I suspect that from the various thread conversations on the subject of "TMP 4.whatever" that other "inquiring minds want to know." Just wondering if you could frame that for us all so we know. Not pushing one way or the other, just curious and have suggestions if you are taking inputs. Understand if you aren't, even for future reference.

If you are, I'll be happy to move the gist of this to a new thread so inputs won't get lost in the shuffle and would have a clearly identified collection point.

I'll hold off on submitting my suggestions, some previously submitted, some new, until I know they are of interest to you.

JJ

Personal logo Coyotepunc and Hatshepsuut Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 12:48 p.m. PST

Our best wishes to the Assistant Editor team, who will hopefully still have some part-time employment here. I have had good interactions with them both here and on FaceBook. All four shared a particular trait that is also.present in my family. They have been a tremendous support and resource for my family outside of TMP as well.

14Bore20 Jan 2017 1:25 p.m. PST

I ran into the original and as I was searching to figure out what it was about it disappeared. Very glad Bill it wasn't in anger. Still not sure what is going on though.

Personal logo Great War Ace Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 1:50 p.m. PST

We wouldn't have the rules directory updated and functioning without the editors. That points out how they may be missed from now on.

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 1:52 p.m. PST

Good luck and best wishes to the editor team. It's a shame to see them go! I hope they'll find employment other places and live long and happy lives.

sjwalker38 Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 2:19 p.m. PST

Will none of them continue to work on a part-time basis then? Laying off 80% of the workforce in one fell swoop suggests a pretty catastrophic collapse of cash-flow such as the loss of several major trade advertisers rather than a gradual decline in the number of SMs, especially as it wasn't so long ago that Bill was telling us that TMP was in robust health.

benito20 Jan 2017 2:30 p.m. PST

VERY sad day !

pmwalt Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 2:41 p.m. PST

It is unfortunate indeed. Agreed, a sad day at :(

D A THB20 Jan 2017 2:47 p.m. PST

Sad to hear of people losing their jobs, we've had enough of that at my workplace lately. I hope the experience that the Editors have had here helps them find suitable work.

Oh Bugger20 Jan 2017 3:01 p.m. PST

First of all I wish all the editors good luck for the future.

Second I have no reason to think that all of them were working full time on TMP and its hard to believe that they all made their living from TMP.

Thirdly iirc Editors came and went at various times in a fashion that fits the description of piece work rather than formally having a permanent part time job contract and all that goes with that.

Now it could be my impression is wrong and if it is I'm happy to be fully informed of the true situation but if we are to discuss this a little clarity would go a long way.

It is traumatic to lose a job as many of us know. A lost income stream is difficult but its not of the same magnitude.

BigDan Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 3:29 p.m. PST

Yes, getting laid off is a bummer.

Good luck ladies!

coopman20 Jan 2017 4:03 p.m. PST

If it's not a secret, I'd like to know how many members are supporting members, percentage-wise?

sjwalker38 Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 4:15 p.m. PST

OK, given the amount of useful information and advice I've had from the various boards over the years, it would be a shame if TMP went the way of Magweb (much missed).

So I'll sign the SM pledge and trust that some of the basic, practical features taken for granted on the likes of LAF and the like ultimately come to fruition here as well.

But, please, no more Boards!

McKinstry Fezian20 Jan 2017 4:57 p.m. PST

Just some base observations on my perception of economics.

There are relatively few miniature gamers in the population.

Only some, although possibly a large fraction, are regular visitors of web sites dedicated to miniature gaming.

Of those, even fewer are willing to pay for supporting those web sites, either by advertising or membership.

So of the entire potential universe of visitors as the denominator and just those actually willing to pay as the numerator, given the actual denominator is pretty much a fixed number (relatively static population of gamers, not dying, not growing), any shrinkage of the numerator is potentially an irrecoverable loss.

I would observe that periodic bouts of drama brought about by politics generally (and other personality issues on occasion) have had the effect of gradually shrinking the numerator and over time, represent a serious financial challenge. I do not see similar issues on LAF or TWW and believe it can be modified or stemmed but the gradual erosion of what is essentially a fixed pool of potential revenue is an issue for any entity with a smallish and relatively finite and fixed customer base.

One example might be the proliferation of boards. A significant majority of those willing to opine have suggested lately that the numbers are out of hand. Should even a small number of potential revenue sources choose to simply opt out so to speak, it is unlikely that revenue can be reclaimed elsewhere.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian20 Jan 2017 5:46 p.m. PST

Second I have no reason to think that all of them were working full time on TMP and its hard to believe that they all made their living from TMP.

Yes, all of them have been working full-time at TMP. I believe they all make their living from their TMP work, but you could ask them specifically.

Thirdly iirc Editors came and went at various times in a fashion that fits the description of piece work rather than formally having a permanent part time job contract and all that goes with that.

I don't know why you would say that.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian20 Jan 2017 5:53 p.m. PST

If it's not a secret, I'd like to know how many members are supporting members, percentage-wise?

Of the Basic Members who are regularly on TMP, about 1 Supporting Member for every 3 Basic Members.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian20 Jan 2017 6:03 p.m. PST

I would observe that periodic bouts of drama brought about by politics generally (and other personality issues on occasion) have had the effect of gradually shrinking the numerator and over time, represent a serious financial challenge.

There's no easy way to know how many members have left or stopped their Supporting Memberships for that reason. Certainly the number who have expressed such an opinion are not a significant number compared to the total membership. Maybe there is an 'invisible' or silent group of people who are doing so, but that is really unknowable.

Most complaints about politics essentially boil down to "I saw something, on a board I don't have to view, that disagreed with my political viewpoint, and I am upset even though I complained to the moderator and action was taken."

I don't know if much can be done for people who deliberately read a board seemingly only for the purpose of looking to be offended. They don't seem to have a genuine interest in the subject matter of that board.

Oh Bugger20 Jan 2017 7:29 p.m. PST

Thanks for the info Bill it was very illuminating.

Terrement Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 7:52 p.m. PST

Bug strike above in the post I did not make which is not on this topic.

What I actually posted was:

Bill, I have to disagree with you on the complaints about politics. What you said occurs. Folks do get bent out of shape over the positions taken. Although not with the same heat of the board argument, every time the issue has come up there are a fair number of folks who chime in and point out that the board has nothing to do with gaming, the acrimony caused by the arguments does nothing good for the page, the moderation is seen as uneven whether you intend it that way or not. I know this first hand as a participant in some of those arguments and as evidenced with the DH cell permanently reserved for my occupancy.

I don't think it is so much a question of people looking to get offended. It seems to me that it is more a case of folks on both sides of an issue who feel strongly and create friction by stating their positions. I know that was true when I haunted the Science board, the Ultramodern board. In many cases, that is what I see when I'm following a disputed thread but not participating. Maybe you are looking at more threads than I but this has always been an issue when politics, religion, and a few other topics are discussed.

There have been repeated suggestions that the non-gaming related boards be looked at for removal because on balance they do more harm than good. You've stated that you think the folks here want to discuss those things as proven by the discussions they have there. That misses the point.

If the boards that are not gaming related are turning folks off like we saw with the CA board way back when or leading to arguments that make this a less pleasant place, or folks get DH'ed for things that don't seem to be even handed, or folks get locked out, or folks even if you can't quantify it of the numbers who have left on their own because of all of this, the question in my mind is, on balance, is having those boards helping you have a better page, a better business or not.

Particularly given the tighter finances you addressed, I think anything that loses you advertisers in particular, or members, both supporting and otherwise, because even non-supporters add value with their content and discussions, needs to be looked at from the perspective of "does this make sense for my business and how I want it to be?"

Obviously your call as to what you want TMP to be. I'm just suggesting that particularly with tight finances, ANYTHING that isn't helping should be reconsidered in that light.

YVMV.

JJ

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian20 Jan 2017 8:20 p.m. PST

Bill, I have to disagree with you on the complaints about politics.

Not sure where you're disagreeing with me.

To repeat myself: Some people may think that a significant number of Basic Members are not becoming Supporting Members because they perceive a moderation problem on the Ultramodern Warfare board, but there is absolutely no evidence one way or the other.

But: If you're a Basic Member for whom this is an issue, please PM me. Let's see a count of people who really care about this one.

alien BLOODY HELL surfer20 Jan 2017 9:07 p.m. PST

Well, I've looked at many an Ultramodern topic and have seen some nasty comments at times, and politics, and at times it seems the wrong people get the DH. More so on the other modern discussion board. I did used to be a paying member and enjoyed the lounge but slowly the better folk (IMO) left, and we got (IMO) more unsavoury people, who seem to be often the loudest on here, certainly on certain topics.

Leadjunky20 Jan 2017 9:10 p.m. PST

Seems like a lot of drama over recent years with a lot of hurt feelings, long time supporting members leaving, and upset sponsors who aren't sponsoring any longer. Is there a theme or common trend here. Maybe things can improve going forward. Hope so.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian20 Jan 2017 9:33 p.m. PST

I did used to be a paying member and enjoyed the lounge but slowly the better folk (IMO) left, and we got (IMO) more unsavoury people, who seem to be often the loudest on here, certainly on certain topics.

That's funny… they said the same thing about you! laugh

The important thing is that the forum rules are enforced. If someone is breaking the rules and not being moderated, tell me. If someone is expressing a viewpoint you find less savory, but he's not breaking forum rules, you can Stifle him – so the problem is self-solving. If someone won't use the Stifle tool, and insists on being offended… well, that person is creating his own problem.

Personal logo piper909 Supporting Member of TMP20 Jan 2017 9:50 p.m. PST

"I appreciate all the work the Editors did and wish them well in their future endeavors."

Ditto from me.

tkdguy21 Jan 2017 12:37 a.m. PST

Brst of luck to the Editors.

GarrisonMiniatures Supporting Member of TMP21 Jan 2017 3:17 a.m. PST

I've kept out of this so far – though should have expressed my regrets re the editors leaving (over the course of our working lives my wife and I have been made redundant 7 times so know how it feels.)

But taking that sentiment out – there is a need to reassess.

A few years back you took on 4 new editors – a massive staffing increase. Now, all four have gone. From outside, these seem to be extreme reactions, certainly over ambitious. Further, they were (mainly) taken on (as stated at the time)to allow you time to develop TMP4. We're still discussing (arguing?) about whether it's there – yes, that one did cost you members. It cost me as a member for a start. The bug, I suspect, has probably cost you more.

I would agree that (again, my view) that some decisions have been – strange? – over the years, again I would say that there is enough evidence to suggest they have cost you members.

I appreciate your view that 'To repeat myself: Some people may think that a significant number of Basic Members are not becoming Supporting Members because they perceive a moderation problem on the Ultramodern Warfare board, but there is absolutely no evidence one way or the other.' – but there is evidence. Lots of it, perhaps all circumstantial, but it's there.

People who leave or don't join are rarely going to actually give you their true reasons. JJ has made a lot of good points above, they're worth looking at seriously.

It's appreciated that this is your board – but above you said 'Of the Basic Members who are regularly on TMP, about 1 Supporting Member for every 3 Basic Members.' – assuming a tenth of 'There are 43,126 members of this website' qualify for those basic members then that is $25,000 USD a year of income – obviously that figure is liable to be wildly out, but you get the idea. It isn't something to be ignored.

I think it's time to step back. Perhaps ask for volunteer moderators – a suggestion that has been put forward before?

However it goes, I wish you and the (former) editors all the best in the future, and hope that TMP can quickly get back on track.

Andrew Preziosi Supporting Member of TMP21 Jan 2017 7:32 a.m. PST

Bill,

I will just add that JJ and GarrisonM make very valid points.

I'm never going to be one of your "Jingo'istic "Bill's Board, Bill's Rules" supporters, you have enough of those already.

Several of us have told you, flat out and IN PUBLIC, that you cause most of your own problems around here, like you did when you started "How should I go about raising the rent around here" and other threads that go back several years, usually erupting, out of the blue too, mind you; when all is calm and peaceful in TMP land.

For the billionth time, I really like TMP and I want it to stay, but created crises that didn't exist before your created them need to stop once and for all.

I just did my (small) part to support you financially, but, in plain English of the Queen…

Would you, please, just let things die down quietly around here in order to get back to nominal levels and as you actually do something to make TMP 3.99999 closer to 4.0, announce it proudly along with a pledge drive.

Simple Stuff, like: Become a Supporting Member w/in the next 72 hours for $18 USD for the Year and see what happens. (Do it on a Tuesday, so you can actually approve the new members in a timely manner too, instead of the usual Weekend Wait TMP is known for.

In short…please, just let things calm down around here and stop poking the cattle; we'll go back to grazing happily and you might make a few Rupee's out of it in the bargain!

It's your call…

Personal logo Texas Jack Supporting Member of TMP21 Jan 2017 8:27 a.m. PST

I think JJ, Garrison, and Andrew make a hell of a lot sense. I particularly like that discount membership deal Andrew proposed (of course the actual amount of the discount would be up to you).

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