Tango01 | 18 Jan 2017 4:35 p.m. PST |
…Islamic State Fight. Read it here… link Amicalement Armand |
Deadles | 18 Jan 2017 5:09 p.m. PST |
Well when they just sit there eating ATGMs without any infantry or mutual protection, then it's not surprising. There is footage out there of ISIS plinking two Turkish Leopards which just sit there. Only other mob I see acting so poorly is the Saudis. Actual larger scale combat has shown massive deficiencies in Turkish military capability. They don't appear to be close to other NATO level troops in terms of capability. For all their Western tech they appear to be closer the Russian army in terms of capability. |
PMC317 | 19 Jan 2017 8:44 a.m. PST |
My money would be on the Russians if push came to shove… |
Legion 4 | 19 Jan 2017 9:04 a.m. PST |
I agree with Deales … And I'd think part of the "problem" is the Turk's Leos crews are not practicing good field craft, tactics and techniques, etc., … The piece of equipment is only as good as the troop(s) behind it. And as I and others have mentioned. Many moslem*/arab armies of the region do really understand the Combine Arms concept and modern mobile high tech Armor/Mech warfare. As we have generally seen for decades in conflicts in the region. *Note: Turks are not considered arabs … and just for context, probably they may take offense to be referred to as such(?). The same goes for Iran/Persians … they are not arabs. |
Bangorstu | 19 Jan 2017 11:12 a.m. PST |
Possibly the one army that does would be the Iranian one given the army (as opposed to the RG) still uses the US training manuals and doctrine dating from the Shah's time… |
Deadles | 19 Jan 2017 3:13 p.m. PST |
We all know about the issues plaguing Arab national armies but the Turkish one is a surprise. This is meant to be a relatively modern NATO compatible force. If they struggle against militias, how would they fare against the Russians? It's also interesting that other than the Kurds, virtually all non-fundamentalist Sunni fighters have proven to be somewhat ineffective in a variety of recent wars (and arguably in the past as well). The Kurds are fighting for national survival. Not sure how many Sunnis are left in the Syrian military which has at least proven to be able to survive under extremely difficult conditions (unlike the Yemeni, Libyan and Iraqi armies which disintegrated quickly). And the bulk of the Iraqi regime's effective fighters seem to be Shia as well. But then the Shias have far more to lose and gain from the current wars. |
Legion 4 | 19 Jan 2017 4:11 p.m. PST |
Possibly the one army that does would be the Iranian one given the army (as opposed to the RG) still uses the US training manuals and doctrine dating from the Shah's time…
Well if so those would be a bit out of date in some cases, I'd think ? But e.g. based on their performance during the Iran-Iraq War … They didn't look like they understood modern mobile warfare, etc. And either did Iraq it seems … Even the Russia training appears that it didn't "take" for many of the moslem/arab forces of the region. Again based on their performances in past conflicts. We all know about the issues plaguing Arab national armies Yes there have even been a book or two published, etc. Basically saying that don't understand Combined Arms Warfare, etc. It was stated it might even be a cultural thing, etc. Again based on their performances in the past. but the Turkish one is a surprise.This is meant to be a relatively modern NATO compatible force.
Yes, that should be true. But it seems the Turks and e.g. the Greeks, etc., are not highly functioning NATO armies. As we see primarily in Western Europe and North America. And the bulk of the Iraqi regime's effective fighters seem to be Shia as well.
Well Iraq was about 60% Shia. And only 15% Sunni, so in many cases the Shia don't "trust" any/many Sunnis. And as we see, Daesh is Sunni and even the Kurds are. But then the Shias have far more to lose and gain from the current wars.
Maybe that is one reason why Iran wants to get nucs ? |
Deadles | 19 Jan 2017 5:22 p.m. PST |
It was stated it might even be a cultural thing, etc. Culture was the main reason given – tribal/family loyalties, nepotism, massive divide between officers and troops etc etc. But it seems the Turks and e.g. the Greeks, etc., are not highly functioning NATO armies. Another discussion but this is the problem with NATO – many players don't contribute much and it seems even if they spend much (like Greeks and to lesser degree Turks) they don't get much capability. Spanish and Italians seem to be a mixed bag too. I don't think the Germans are much better – they had shocking performance in Afghanistan due to poor training even in basic small arms training (excludes special forces). It's why despite all the cutbacks, the Brits, Danes, Norwegians, Canadians and Dutch are still the cutting edge of NATO outside of Europe. I don't count the French cause they're an unreliable NATO partner – they only come to the party when it's in their national interest. And their troops have mixed performance as well (e.g. infamous Uzbin province when a platoon got wiped out in a Taliban ambush due to poor practices).
Maybe that is one reason why Iran wants to get nucs ? No doubt. On paper the Arab oil states have a massive conventional advantage and are backed up by other Arab states and of course the USA. This doesn't change even if the Iranians completely re-armed with latest state of the art Western conventional tech. Just the Gulf State Arabs have a combined air power of over 700 advanced fighter jets, many being long range and more advanced than those used by NATO. Even badly used, this is a major force. And that doesn't take into account potential Arab reinforcements. Yet through all this, the clever Iranians have managed to become major influence wielder in Iraq, have saved Syria and have damaged Sunni Arab interests in Yemen. All with relatively minimal investment. They are the masters of proxy warfare and we could learn a thing or two from them. |
Mako11 | 19 Jan 2017 11:32 p.m. PST |
"We all know about the issues plaguing Arab national armies but the Turkish one is a surprise". It really shouldn't be, given all the purging that's occurred since the coup attempt vs. Erdie. I imagine most of the effective leaders have been sacked, as is usual in such circumstances, and political loyalists who know next to nothing are inserted in their place. |
Legion 4 | 20 Jan 2017 9:34 a.m. PST |
This doesn't change even if the Iranians completely re-armed with latest state of the art Western conventional tech. Just the Gulf State Arabs have a combined air power of over 700 advanced fighter jets, many being long range and more advanced than those used by NATO. Even badly used, this is a major force Hmmm ? I wonder where they got some of that money ? Or more money to develop nucs, even ? Oh wait … never mind … we all know of that massive geopolitical failure and miscalculation … Never mind … Hopefully that mess could start to be "cleaned" up a bit. Starting tomorrow. It's why despite all the cutbacks, the Brits, Danes, Norwegians, Canadians and Dutch are still the cutting edge of NATO outside of Europe. Don't forget the USA, even though it too has been under the cutback knife. And as always the "ANZACs", even if they are not part of NATO. They do some good soldiering … as seen in both A'stan and Iraq. The Danes, Norwegians & Dutch are still the cutting edge
There may be some leftover "Viking" blood in them … |
Deadles | 21 Jan 2017 5:12 a.m. PST |
Whoops mean't to say outside of US. Australians do good. Kiwis might be good but there contribution is extremely limited given small size of their army (a single light infantry brigade) |
Legion 4 | 21 Jan 2017 10:24 a.m. PST |
No problem … I figured. But I just wanted to make the point the US military is going thru some "reorganization" too. Yes, as far as the "ANZACs" even thought small in number they seem to always do their part. I respect that … |
Deadles | 23 Jan 2017 8:41 p.m. PST |
TuAF ended up bombing their own tanks to prevent capture by ISIS. Pics here – Leo's tipping their hats T-34 style. link |
Legion 4 | 24 Jan 2017 8:48 a.m. PST |
Doh !!!! You don't want to make that the norm ! But again, the Turks are not poster boys for the modern combined arms mobile warfare concept … |
Whatisitgood4atwork | 26 Jan 2017 11:48 a.m. PST |
NZ Army has unfortunately been so throttled for cash by successive governments over the last 40 years, there is not much left either in numbers or in serviceable hardware. I mean this as no slight on the men and women who are serving, but as a comment on the generations of penny-pinching that has left NZ with little actual capacity. No combat aircraft, no tanks, officers using their cellphones as communications gear fails … Our Special Forces, relying more on training and having more affordable kit, are making contributions, some of which we get to hear about, a lot we obviously don't. I am told they are will-equipped for their missions. |
Deadles | 01 Feb 2017 4:21 p.m. PST |
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Steve Wilcox | 19 Feb 2017 1:44 p.m. PST |
Leopard 2 in Syria – part 2 link |